Students playing hookie - Where are all the good students

[yambu321]

RUMBA HEAVEN AS I WAS GROWING UP!

SAINT MARY'S PARK
ORCHARD BEACH (LA PLAYA DE LOS MOJONES)
RANDALLS ISLAND
HUNTS POINT
SIMPSON STREET
CYPRESS AVE
BROOK AVE (MILLBROOK PROJECTS)
EASTCHESTER PROJECTS
CO-OP CITY
THE VALLEY
EDENWALD PROJECTS
BRONX PARK
PROSPECT AVE
JACKSON AVE
EAST TREMONT AVE
WHITE PLAINS ROAD
BURKE AVE
PELHAM BAY PARK

(MANHATTAN)

E.110 ST & LEXINGTON AVE
CARVER PROJECTS
JEFFERSON PROJECTS
CENTRAL PARK
103 ST & LEXINGTON AVE

BRONX, AND THE REST OF NYC, BABE!



Edited By yambu321 on 1198117412

[davidpenalosa]

.. i have not learned how to strike the balance between overwhelming them and challenging them at the same time.

The best teachers i know are REALLY hard on their students, not nearly as patient as i am. Ive been screamed at repeatedly by one of my teachers, and i go back to him regularly, as it makes me a better player without a doubt. The more demanding the teacher is, the better he is, to me. This music is not learned through passive part-time casual learning.

I don’t have anything against $100 per hour lessons per sé, but if I also got a bunch of impatient attitude with spending that kinda dough, I would not feel good about it. And rightly so!

Regino Jimenez and C.K. Ladzekpo always expected my best from me, but they were never abusive teachers. Such behavior was beneath them.

I’m very skeptical of drum teachers being condescending and/or bullying as a method of "instilling respect for the tradition". In every instance I’ve encountered that attitude in North America, it reflected shortcomings of the teacher.

We teach respect through example. If you think your own study habits and attitude towards the music is exemplary, then it will be self-evident to your students. They will "get it", believe me. Preaching down to your students only confuses them (great music – not so great people). It takes no great talent to be hard on students. You can make them feel stupid, overwhelmed and awed by your prowess very easily. If you are not exceptionally patient, nor particularly insightful into people’s ways of receiving information, you can’t be an effective teacher.

I began teaching nearly thirty years ago at $5 per hour. I now charge $50 and feel great about it. Before I give a new student a lesson, I screen them in order to determine what they want to learn and if I’m the best person to help them. During the lesson, I am their servant, not the other way around. I will make sure that they leave with what they came for. I will also make sure they understand the correct way to play the material, have some understanding of its context and other related elements, but most importantly, I give them what they came for.

For my part, that entails actually knowing the desired material (the easiest part), assessing the student’s skill level and how they learn the music (rote, verbal, counting, written charts, etc). It’s about getting them from where they are to where they want to be. Of course they often don’t fully realize all that’s entailed in the goal they’ve chosen and it’s my job to appropriately educate them. Quite often they want to learn something that’s way beyond their current ability, say learn rumba quinto before they’ve learned the supportive parts, or can play clave while tapping their foot to the beat. In such cases, I explain the situation and show them the next step they need to take on their way to that ambitious goal. The trick is to fill them up, inspire them, but NOT overwhelm them. To do so would be a failure on my part.

If I have regularly scheduled weekly lessons with a student, I tell them to give me a 24 hr cancellation call if they haven’t had time to practice the material from the previous lesson.

I’ve taught some prodigies and lots of sharp, advanced students. However, most students I’ve taught have only a temporary or part-time casual interest in the music; they do it as a hobby, not as an obsession. That’s not my problem. What they do with the material is their business. Over the years I’ve had the great fortune to teach some very serious and talented students whom later became musical colleagues. That’s the exception though.

That’s how I feel about teaching.
-David



Edited By davidpenalosa on 1198083901

[blango]

David,

Great to hear from you! hope you are well... Thanks for the very sound advise.

Regino and C.K., masters for sure, are great examples of the method of teaching you describe.

http://www.cnmat.berkeley.edu/~ladzekpo/

(didnt know you were C.K.'s student,. he is such a kind man, and a very respected master drummer. I see him from time to time, ill say hello for you) Do you know Trevino Leon? He's one of my brothers.

Its funny, as reasonable people could differ on what is motivational. But for most people, i can see that your method works well. I dont think the forceful method of teaching is a flaw in ones spirit, or something like that, but it may not be as effective for the average student.

C.K. And Yagbe, very good and long time friends, are on the opposite ends of the spectrum! Love and respect, Yagbe can be outright nasty. But he teaches for free to those who will learn, and put up with him.

I have to say, if one sticks it out with Yagbe, for example, you will become proficient, even if you dont want too! :laugh:

I would never yell at a student, nor do i pressure them. I just expect they learn the material. But i do prefer having a very demanding teacher... i need to sort that out.

I love the idea of telling them to cancel if they didnt do the homework. I will implement that asap.

David, your students are very lucky to be with you, i hope they know how fortunate they are!

By the way, can you PM me with what you charge in your area?

Peace,

Tony

[burke]

Wow David!
Move to Nova Scotia and I'd become your student in a heartbeat!.
I agree with absolutely everything you said. I have been taught many times in both theatre and Martial arts by jerks who think shouting and abuse is a teaching method. There are some folks who benefit from that method - I ain't one of them. As a young man I took it but felt it was wrong and as a middleaged man now I wouldn't - I walk away - don't care how good you are - lifes toooo short.

I've taught a few things too in the past and try to practice what I preach. Currently I teach fencing in my community and have the same problems folks not showing up etc. I was grinding my teeth about it but don't now - I know I'm a good teacher - so folks not working very hard isn't my problem - just keep on smiling letting them get what they get out of it.
As to Tony's rates - yeah it seems a little high but what an excellent point about paying plumbers $60/hr. Hard to argue with that. I have given (and now train) folks to give historical tours and am amased how few people tip (bear with me its the same basic idea as the plumber). You give folks an hour or so personal attension work really hard - get praised up the yin/yang but no tip. Some body else says hello - what will you have and slams a plate in front of you and they almost always get 15% - nuff said.



Edited By burke on 1198078616

[No.2-1820]

I'd like a number for one of those plumbers, they are between 80 and 120 $ and hour round here (east bay), often with an hour and a half minimum for call out !

Barrie

[davidpenalosa]

Hi Tony and Burke,
Thanks for your kind feedback.

If someone does not give me a 24 hr cancellation notice (they blow me off), I charge them for the lesson. When I teach a series of classes, I get paid for the series up front. That will unsure that they show up.

I know Trevino. We had the opportunity to play together during a fun week of workshops at HSU in 1995.
-David

[No.2-1820]

Incidently I'd love to come and have some lessons with you Tony, I just really struggle with the time and distance to Napa, I can practice at home a lot and I can make it down to Berkeley for a couple of hours but trying to get up to you means trying to arrange a whole day for that hour lesson, with work, the missus and the kids all competing for that time it's just proving impossible. I know from talking to you by phone and the people you hang and play with that your passion for this tradition is endless and I know I would progress enormously. I believe the rates you and many others in the bay area charge are fine and quite justified for one on one tuition but have to say speaking from my personal financial situation that around 25 $ each in a small group (2-3 students rotating different rhythmic parts) works better for me, if the cost is something of an issue for me (and it always is as a struggling small business owner) then it detracts from my overall enjoyment and relaxation, which will impact my learning ability.

A great discussion,

Regards, Barrie.

[blango]

Hey Barrie,

Nice to hear from you.

No worries on not making it up to Napa. I do teach in the east bay as well, fyi. We can work out the financial part of it, not a problem. Give me a buzz when you have time.

I can recommend others that are closer, if that helps. Cliff Brooks is in the east bay and is $25 an hour, or so i hear.

By the way, it looks like the Matt Smith Oak 11.75 might be making its way back to me funny how things work out.

Tony

[No.2-1820]

I'm very glad to hear the conga may be coming back to the fold, I'll call you this Friday if your around, the kids are off school then so I'm housebound for the day. I have seen Cliff's ads, he has a very good reputation around the bay area. He works on the pay for the course up front method I believe, I'm sure that must help with cancelations. I would like to work it out with you though, from our chats I know your knowledge and passion starts from the very structure of the drum to the highest level of performance (as I learned from the amazing show you were involved with at La Pena). I am very in need of instruction, I do get to practice a lot at home while the kids do their thing but I have hit a wall and find myself getting too repetetive with rhythms or parts that I'm familiar with. BUT ! I do have a crazy family life and schedule, which is why I hadn't been in touch for a while, I didn't want to keep trying to make it and then let you down, i.e. the whole theme of this discussion !

Talk soon, Barrie.

[Whopbamboom]

I also believe guys like Spiro actually charge that much so they won't be bothered, cause he is so busy doing clinics and other stuff that possible nets him about $80,ooo grand a year, he don't really need the money then for teaching....

This makes a lot of sense to me... it is an effective way to make your teaching business profitable. But thank goodness not everyone chooses to go this route! One-on-one lessons are a good thing!

[pavloconga]

Hi guys,
Great discussion here.
Just wanted to add that here is a huge difference between a teacher being tough and demanding and another teacher being bullying, condescending and unreasonable.

The teachers that have pushed my development the most have always been tough but fair, demanding - but coming from a place of genuinely wanting you to improve and develop.

When I studied in Cuba, after I had studied with my teacher for around 1 month he began to push me relentlessly. As just one example, he would have me improvise over a foundation rhythm and clave without a break for half an hour. If I showed any sign of letting up, or not playing with force, he would push me, encourage me by yelling, "Fuerte! Fuerte!" This always came from the right place in him. It was never about bullying or condescencion.

A parallel might be a swimming coach who pushes his athletes to reach new levels. Always coming from the right place with love and respect.

As always, this kind of thing has to be appropriate to the level of development of the student.

[blango]

Cool Barry, we'll take it slow...

...by the way, Flaco has good things to say about Cliff. Thats not an easy endorsement to get!

Pav -

re: demanding teachers...

My personal favorite is someone you greatly respect yelling at you to...

'RELAX! RELAX!' When you are trying so hard not to try! :laugh:

I think you hit the nail on the quataca on this one for me Pav, its mostly been tough love, in my experience.

Power trips are sad, and usually transparent. We are so lucky to have such little ego among such heavy players here in the bay, for the most part.

Tony

[JohnnyConga]

YAMBU321

I TOO ALSO PARTICIAPATED IN RUMBA IN EVERY PLACE U MENTIONED.(60'S & 70'S)..WHAT I HAVE ALWAYS SAID WAS "CUBA IS IN NEW YORK!".....THE BEST PLACE FOR "REAL" RUMBA OUTSIDE OF CUBA....Johnny Conga.........

[bongosnotbombs]

Doesn't La Pena have free classes? Who is teaching those?

[blango]

I believe its Josh Jones.

I dont know the cat. Not sure where he's been hiding, or perhaps he is not into playing around. Im not sure who he studied from, or who he pays with, but if he's teaching at La Pena, he must know whats up. I dont think the classes are free, me thinks they are cheap group lessons, as far as i understand.

I actuall dont know anyone who takes the class, for some reason.

I can ask around about him, see if anyone has played with him etc.

Peace,

Tony