"unique 3-ply construction" - Is it just spin?

[taikonoatama]

I was going to post this in reply to a post by Chapo comparing LP Galaxies (3-ply) vs. Meinl Mongos (2-ply), but figure it should have its own discussion.

I'm curious about 2-ply and 3-ply construction. I'm assuming they're basically talking about using plywood (albeit 2 or 3 thick-ish layers as opposed to the denser layering of standard plywood). Since when are plywood congas a good thing in terms of sound? Please correct me if I'm wrong here, but what's up with this? LP drums (with solid staves - assuming they'd always been solid stave before - not sure when they switched to ply) have always been super strong, without major cracking or warping issues, so I find it hard to believe they'd need to go this direction for added strength unless they're now using inferior wood that's subject to warping and cracking (though the Giovannis do use N. American ash) or, most likely, plywood is significantly cheaper to use. Is LP's "unique 3-ply construction technique" just spin, in a sense? To make plywood construction seem like a good thing?

Being that these are a high-quality, top of the line drums from the biggest name in percussion, I have to think I'm missing something here. What's up with this?

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Serious congas for serious pros like Giovanni Hidalgo. Galaxy Giovanni Conga Series are among the finest wood congas ever created. Extended Collar Comfort Curve II rims offer better tonal range and comfort. Gorgeous shells crafted of premium, environmentally friendly North American ash with a unique 3-ply construction technique utilizing steel pins for reinforcement. Gold tone hardware including heavy-duty steel side plates and 3/8"-diameter lugs. Hand-selected natural rawhide heads and innovative shell designs provide commanding bass, rich mids, crackling highs, and punchy projection. Includes accessory pouch, tuning wrench, and lug lube.
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~Taiko

[zwar]

i have seen several cracked shells. solid wood, put near a heating, something like that. there were times, bauer drums were well known for that. to minimize the danger of cracking, meinl and lp began to build staves out of two plys (other than with common plywood both plys in some fiberdirection). this is usual technik to prevent movement in the wooden parts.
most of the higher priced congashells are produced in that way by now.
obviously it was a good idea, cause i havent seen a cracked 2ply shell till now. whether or not there might be a plus of quality by adding a third ply...if so, i could not see or hear.


greets

zwar

[jmdriscoll]

This is an old post, but I was doing some searching on conga construction and ran across this posting...

taikonoatama, when a manufacturer refers to 2 or 3 ply construction, I truly don't think that were talking about ply-wood here... Plywood is made with filler material and is not used on congas. Regardless, there is no 2-ply plywood, as 3 ply is the minimum ply's that ply wood comes in... Anyway, without getting too deep into the construction of plywood, 3 ply is usually considered to be the cheper plywood, and 5 ply or higher is usually considered to be more along the lines of furniture grade. I used a nice 5-ply birch for the body of a cajon that I made last year, with a 1/8" 3 ply birch head just because I have never seen a 5-ply 1/8" plywood.. Cajons are typically made from some sort of ply, as a piece of 1/8" hardwood would be hard to come by in the size needed to be a cajon head, and also it would be too brittle...

In the conga rhelm, when they refer to 2 or 3 ply then were talking about ply's of hardwood strips. LP states that their Aspires are made from 2-ply, and their matador and LP classics etc.. are made from 3 ply. This means that each individual stave is made from 3 ply's of hard wood strips. So if each 3 ply stave was 3/4" thick, then that means that each ply is a 1/4" hardwood strip. If each stave is a 3/4" 2-ply stave, then this wold mean that each ply is made of 3/8" hard wood strips. These strips are of coursed glued together and clamped until they become 1 stave. There are a few reasons why this would be beneficial.. To start, it is easier and causes les stress on the wood to bend 3 1/4" pieces and glue them together than to bend 1 3/4" piece of wood. The other is that in the long run it is assumed that building the staves in ply's will last longer. LP's site says that they use small steel pins between staves to keep things aligned and to help keep everything together.. Volcano's site states that they use wooden biscuit joints in the same way. LP also mentions something about a fiberglass layer in the middle that they use... hmmm.. don't know anything about that unless they use some epoxy resin to join the staves and add a sheet of fiber while their at it..

http://www.lpmusic.com/Product_Showcase/Why_Buy_LP/whybuy3.html

http://www.volcanopercussion.com/html/conga_anatomy.html


One thing that I like on both of these websites is the talk of special resin glues that is waterproof and such to hold the staves together... Lowes Home Improvement... "Gorrilla Glue" Best glue on the planet for joining wood...resin based, waterproof,... real special. Gorrilla glue makes joints stronger than the wood itself. Ask anybody who has ever used it. Stay tuned... I plan on building my own Quinto, Conga and Tumba in the not so distant future. I am not in a rush, but I drew up plans this weekend for the overall dimensions and the exact bend points for each stave... same for all 3 drums. Once I get started and at least get done with drawing all of my plans, I am going to take pictures and document the process on this board... including the plying of the stave process.. Won't be tomorrow, but in time to come you will see a post on this project, updated as work gets done. Hopefully if the project turns out to be a success and the drums sound good, it will inspire another rogue handyman to build their own as well...?

MD

[Whopbamboom]

Not sure I'd use Gorilla Glue... it fared the WORST in a recent strength-test that Fine Woodworking Magazine conducted. Do a search on this board for "gorilla" and pull up my comments about that, where I summarized the test results.

[bongosnotbombs]

I think the Volcanoes use solid wood. not ply
and the wood "splines" are use to keep the staves
attached to each other, not to keepl any layers of ply
from delaminating..

I don't know anything about the LP construction, but glue is usually what keeps layers of ply together, not pins. I think the pins are used to align the staves with each other along ther seems.

[Mike]

Anyway, any carpenter will tell you that for construction purposes, and especially for those wooden parts which aren´t supposed to budge, be it conga shells, , furniture or even a woodhouse construction, it is of advantage to have two or more layers glued together because they will produce a more resilient construction, because they won´t tend to bend or break so often!



Edited By Mike on 1190148117

[bongosnotbombs]

On a different note, most high quality musical isntruments advertise being made of solid woods for better resonance and projection.

The more collectable bongos are made from solid shells...violins, guitars from solid woods.

[buckoh]

I will personally nix the polyurethane glues (Gorilla is one). I repair furniture and used to use the polyurethane glues for in-home, structural repairs. I even moistened both surfaces (moisture helps the cure), and had some failures. I've used Titebond II on exterior hand carved signs (boats, restaurants. bars) for years with no failures. The poly was supposed to be a good gap filler, but, it still failed. Haven't used it in years. Peace, Buck

[jmdriscoll]

Buck, Wow!! I have been hooked on gorrilla glue since a friend of mine turned me on to it about a year and a half ago. I built a cajon using gorilla glue and it has held together great so far. Thanks for the advise though. I'll have to do bit more research on my glue selection. Bnb.. yes, the biscuits that Volcanoe uses, and the pins that LP uses are to help keep the staves connected to each other, and not to protect against delaminating...correct observation. Regarding if volcano ply's their staves or not, maybe not since they don't specifically say that they do on that page. They probably just cut each stave from one solid peice of wood as you said, and steam bend it to shape. If you think about it though... it is less stress on the wood if you bend 3 individual 1/4" slats and then laminate them together to make one 3/4" stave -vs- bending a 3/4" stave that is not plied. I would think that the plied version would hold up longer over time, just as Mike had stated.

MD

[bongosnotbombs]

I know a little about construction, and I am not sure I agree, I'm not trying to be argumentative, just discussing the subject.

Plywood and plied wood typically gets its strength from having the plies orientated in different directions. I don;t think the ply congas are made that way.

I can see the construction of a ply conga being less stable as the 3 plies are exposed to different environments and having different finishes and consequently expanding and contracting at different rates from moisture and heat.

The new glues may be strong but the wood adhering to it still has the same strength and can fail.

Anyways, the ply construction I still feel is a cost cutting or cosmetic thing for companies. To build a conga you only need 1/3 of the amount of "clear wood" without knots and blemishes, as the rest of the wood is hidden in plies, there might be other reasons.

Musically, I just think solid wood is better. The glue changes the density of the wood, and affects the resonace, and also adds weight. That might be part of the reason the new LP congas weigh so much.



Edited By bongosnotbombs on 1190217327

[jmdriscoll]

Bnb, you may very well be right. I am not an engineer and cannot say for sure. I'm not 100% sure, but when I build mine, I think that, I am going to ply the wood. I think that the only "gotcha" in this equation might be that we are talking about the strength of bent wood. A 1/4" thick piece of hardwood can be bent a small amount by hand without steam. A 3/4" piece of wood won't budge without steam, or heat . To me, there seems like less pressure on the wood if doing it in 3 ply's. My biggest argument against solid staves being superior over ply staves, is that LP's higher end drums use 3 ply's and their Aspires only use 2 ply's. Not that LP is the authority, because thyey are after all a corporation, but a quote from their site as linked above:

"The staves are glued together using several layers of thin wood, called plies. (LP and LP Matador brand congas use three ply and LP Aspire brand use two ply.) The reason for this is it reduces the stress on each piece of wood making the drum stronger and more durable."

This would make me think that more ply's is better. Maybe it is just for a lower cost of production, and maybe they only do it so that they can use crappy wood on the inner plies.. potentially valid points. I have a book on the way called "The complete manual of woodbending". I am going to read that before deciding one way or another which way I am going to go for sure.... to ply, or not to ply.

MD

[bongosnotbombs]

That sounds like an excellent book! It's good to know that there is a resource like that, I have also thought about building my own congas sometime in the future.