Heel-Toe Playing - How loud should it be?

[JohnnyConga]

Mongo's legacy is about 90 recorded albums over a 50 year period of performing as an artist. In my opinion he is the one that truly "popularized" the congas drum through the 60's and 70's,and into the 80's. No other conga drummer has recorded more except Ray Barretto. Close to 90 albums and on another 500 as a studio musician. Ray is still playing at the age of 75 and still touring. Patato Valdes is 78 and still playing and touring. Fransisco Aguabella is in his 70's and still playing...what does that tell you about the drum people? My plan is also to play well into my 70's and play at my own funeral to boot........?....... At your Service...JC JOHNNY CONGA....MONGO LIVES !

[congabebe]

Thank you Michael and Johnny, I will keep working on it. It is awkward. As for my teacher, he is a great player, but He is not 'trained to be a teacher', I have taken many music lessons on flute and I am used to the 'book' method. Do you know what I mean? Here is the written song, this is how it is played, now go home and practice it. This guy plays and plays during the lesson, he sings the parts, he can reproduce so much but imitation is what I am learning. I have showed him some of the books that I have, taught him a little on music notation. But if I am to learn from him, I have to let him teach me the way he knows. I believe I am at fault, I believe you can learn from anyone if you keep an open mind. However, I may be looking down the road for a more polished 'educated' teacher. I go to Nashville to visit family from time to time, I have thought many times about looking up your friend Glen Caruba. I have bought 2 of his books, Afro Cuban Percussion and the Modern Percussionist, I need to work on those more diligently. Funny, but as much as I want to take a lesson, I don't want to waste one on the basic stuff, so I am not ready to look him up just yet. Are these bad excuses? Probably, but as you may remember, I am not a high school student, looking to set the world on fire with my talent. I have been to college/music schools, I am not going to make a living touring, or drive across country to audition for a band. I just play for fun and everything I have picked up has been from videos/books/etc and listening to music and of course my favorite the Conga Forum. Maybe I am not dreaming enough about it, setting my goals too low. I have been checking some other players out around town. If I got really good on percussion what could be my goals to accomplish? Play in a band, recording at a studio, teaching, ? I already play in a band, I have set in with some really fine musicians, but no one takes me seriously, no one wants to pay a percussionists. Memphis is the home of Elvis and the Blues. There maybe 2 people that specialize in latin music but they have day jobs. My teacher makes his living as a carpenter. And it is true that most of the people playing professionally have been 'established', studied with 'African' Masters, have Cuban family roots, have degrees, etc. This is the part that is laughable to me. Say I audition for the hottest Latino band in Memphis or dream on... Miami, I show up to compete against Cubans who played since they were babes and there I am a female Irish American from Tennessee. Who started playing by watching videos during a mid-life crisis? Who are they going to hire? "Yawl come back now ya here?" Yeah, no one falls for sterio-types in music. I have been around to know, you got to look the part on stage, the hair, the look, ... and you have to blend and work well with the other musicians. No offense guys but it is a boys club in many ways. As it is I play in an all male band. I got in the back door, I am married to the bass player, so I have no room to complain. The guys in the band are my brothers and they have given me a great opportunity. I love playing and am very grateful they let me do this. I want to get better because I need to earn their respect and make it enjoyable for them. I would hate to be the 'sore' thumb of the band. But, I got to have it together before I could compete in the 'real' world.

I really feel that to really go to that level, I would have to go back to school and get a masters in music and be prepared to travel. I would never be able to compete with someone that already has toured the world or is already working in the field to make a living at it. So far for me, it is a passion and a serious hobby. Is there someone who can share their story about what other options I could be looking at? Tell me I am foolish and that I am settling for less. If I drive to Nashville to get a private lesson, I think I need to more serious about that higher level, so far I have not found a reason to push it to that limit.

Johnny, when you teach, don't you screen your students to see what 'level' they are at before you decide to take them as a student. I had to audition for Music schools and Music camps, they don't just let anyone in school. Shouldn't I be a certain level before I look up a teacher like Glen Caruba?

Anyone like to comment? I hope I haven't offended anyone. I hope I am bringing some good discussion to the forum. I am not saying that I couldn't, or that I won't be accepted because of my race/sex/age, it is just that I know better than think I don't have some major obsticles to work with. There are some female drummers and conga players. If you are out there speak up!

Thank you for your patience,
Peace
Congabebe

[JohnnyConga]

Hi CongaBeBe..well at least your fortunate to be able to play in a band,and that's a good thing ya know. Basically I would think your a "hobbiest" and if you make a little money on the side that's ok too. I have met many people in my life that I have taught ,and yes I do screen everyone that comes to me . I have a little process that I put them through. I taught the President of Easter Seals, Herb Gore how to play bongos ,to bankers,electricians,scientists' I have taught a wide range of backgrounds so I'm not particular as to whom I teach, it's whether or not I think the capabilities and sincerity is there. I have turned away a few. Some cats just wanted one lesson so they can go out and say they studied with me, one lesson is not "studying with me",it is a lifelong partnership and friendship that developes through the drum. I still talk with ex-students of mine that went on to play seriously and privately after 25 years. They are now my friends for life. You are very honest with yourself,be proud of your humility. It will serve you well. No ,you can look up any teacher , it shouldn't depend on the level your on. Basically for conga it's beginner,intermediate,and advanced. So go from there Ok?...Your doing just fine..... at your Service...JC JOHNNY CONGA..

[Michael S]

I read your posting congabeb and for a minute I thought I wrote it. My story parallels yours almost point for point (with the exception of the gender problems). I even had a teacher who couldn't teach but just played well and another teacher who I paid to tell me how to sit up straight and do rudiments. Needless to say, I gave up on teachers, especially since I had, or rather have, no clear goal in mind. I am a self-learner, even teaching myself the keyboard for the last year. I have quite a collection of conga books, most of which just teach the same old basics. (The exceptions are the wonderful books by Alan Dworsky and Betsy Sansby. They fully explore all aspects of hand drumming and rhythm and from the viewpoint of the non-professional who plays only for their pleasure.) As a 48 year old white anglo-saxon, with a pauch and bald head, I know I'm never gonna burn up a Latin jazz band at the Village Gate but I can play tumbao all night with some great guys locally, don't get paid, but don't have the obligations that come with being a paid musician. I can sit out any song I want and they let me sit in any time I want. I have my day job and don't have to put up with anybody's bullsh*t ego. The only "Latin" music in AZ is Mariachi and Sedona is the secret elephant burial ground of rock & roll guitarists. But I can play guanguanco all day in my garage with the beat going on in my head.
In short, I don't think you are doing anything wrong nor is there anything wrong with you. I have shared many of your frustrations. One thing you might try is a drum circle. I joined one for a little while in Rehobeth Beach, DE and really enjoyed it. Try and start with a small group. Mine was all djembes but they really liked the different tonal qualities of the congas and my bag of toys (claves, shakers, maracas, etc) were picked up by all in the group.

[Michael S]

JC, that was interesting about dropping the "&3&" from the tumbao. I'm gonna have to try that and see if I can't push my tumbao faster.
BTW, I asked you about your advice on the slow blues but I didn't quite understand your answer. Would that be a slow tumbao on the tumba drum, played in a "swing" style (I think you referred to a "shuffle"). For instance, 1 &a2 &a3 &a4 &a1? Would I play that as HTSTHTOO? I've experimented with some of that but I'm still not convinced that the congas are right for the slow blues or the "Stormy Monday" style.

[congabebe]

Thank you for you comments. I appreciate having a place I can both learn and voice my opinion or work out my dreams. Michael, it is nice to know you know where I am coming from. And Johnny you inspire me. I haven't completely given up on trying to be the best conga player in town, I just have some obstacles to work with. I may get the courage to call up Glen for a lesson, but I am not ready yet. I have only been playing about 2 almost 3 years. It is humbling when I run across some of the most talented musicians on this forum and when I go out to here live music in Memphis. I have to keep perpective on getting better. I think I have grown leaps and bounds, and to have played or sat in with people that are so talented when I have not been playing that long. That is the beauty of congas, they are easy to hit in tempo and to spice up the music, but I do want more than that, I just haven't made my mind up on what level I want to go to. I may still be taking lessons at 60. My Dad plays drums (set), he has played in swing/dance bands all his life. He is 71 and takes lessons. So it is never to late to work at it.

Thank you for your help and inspiring me. I may have an opportunity to play in a Mexican band, I have sat in with them a couple of times. My teacher plays set with them. So far, he has been real encouraging but he knows that they need a stronger conga player and so I may get the cow bell part, but I would be happy either way. I am really complimented that they let me sit in I must be doing something right, cause they would not have welcomed me back. Much to learn .... I been listening to as much Cuban, Salsa, Merengie (spelling?) as I can. I found a net music place called Batanga.com, you can listen on line, this allows me to listen to tons of music that I can't afford to buy. They have almost no commercials, they list the artist, the title of the song and the album, so you can order it online. Check it out. It is not like Discarga? More like a radio station.

Peace,
congabebe

[Michael S]

One thing I discovered about playing live with rock or pop or cover bands or Top Forty bands or whatever you want to call them: their expections are much less than your assessment of your own skill level. They don't really know much about congas and just rely on you to provide what's needed. And for much of what's needed in that genre, you don't have to be Giovanni Hidalgo. In short, I sit in and view it as a practice session.

[JohnnyConga]

Here's the deal...the conga drum is considered a "specialist" instrument. Even the cats in a symphony don't really play them but they have them on stage for certain parts to use them on depending on the arrangement or score. See nobody can tell you how/what to play on this instrument unless they play it themselves, or they are an arranger that has 'specific' parts,to be played. Nobody in my 35 year career has ever told me what to play,One I always knew what to play and because I am a "rhythmist".some session work maybe. But when you show up with your drums it's already assumed you know what to do with them. So it's ok to play with what you know and study your rhythms/styles,to get better. so you go and play the best you can and learn as you go!....At your Service...JC JOHNNY CONGA...MONGO LIVES! ps Michael S hit it on the head too!

[Michael S]

Johnny C, that may be the single most helpful thing I've read on this forum yet, and I've read a LOT of helpful things. Thank you. I think that is what I was starting to realize and trying to put into words, what was just a germ of an idea in the back of my head. To have someone of your experience and talent verify that for me puts me strides ahead. I have always been afraid of playing the wrong thing and I'm just now starting to realize, by playing live, what you just put into words. When I listen to the great congueros, I get discouraged because they always seem to play just the right thing and I worry that I'm not creative enough to be able to do that. Well, 99% of the public out there has not the slightest idea of how to even hold the conga drum, so I'm already above the pack and can only get better.

[RayBoogie]

Just a little info about myself. I have played for five years. I have had lessons in the past and now in my fifth year of playing I can actually hear tracks on cd and transcribe them mentally or on paper and play what I heard from that cd (believe it or not).
I have gone to parties, heard people play the congas and was intimidated to play because of the fear that either the drummer or the crowd would think I suck. I have learned with time that maybe that drummer might have certain skills that I don't have, but I have skills that he doesn't have. So, I continue practicing to make myself a better conguero.
JC, that statement you said on March 06, 2003; 15:35, really made me feel comfortable and more open to start making more "power moves" as a conguero. THANKS MAN!

[Fish]

I think that one of the greatest things about the congas is that it is very easy to develop a "signature style" - I'm not sure what it is precisely that makes this easier but I know that I find it far easier to do so on congas than on the other percussion instruments I play (I also find it easy on didjeridu). Obviously, it's harder to make your "signature style" apparent when playing set patterns (tumbao etc) than when improvising but I think it can still be done if you just change the rhythm for 8 bars or so every now and then and with occasional solos.

Another great thing in my mind is that it requires relatively little experience to play something that "sounds good". While a beginning violinist for instance may be there for over a year trying to scrape out "Mary had a little lamb", a beginning conguero can play something that sounds interesting within a few weeks. That's not to say that the instrument is easy ..... believe me it isn't . I think it's just the nature of Latin rhythms that there is enough rhythmic complexity to sound cool without exceptional technique/skill.

Anyhow, what I had meant to say before I got sidetracked is that I analysed my tumbao and I believe the problem I have is that at faster tempos I tend to leave out the toe immediately after the slap and consequently get out of time. I'll just have to concentrate on that.

Fish

[Larry D]

Reading this Thread convinced me to go ahead and register as part of this forum. I have been reading this forum for only about 6 weeks. I bought my first set of congas just 2 weeks ago after getting advice from this forum - Thanks Johnny Conga and others that provided input. I bought a set of Meinl Marathons - Quinto and Tumba based upon advice ya'll gave me.

I am 47 - have a degree in music (u of FLorida - 1977 Trumpet player!) and just got around to getting some congas - a life long desire. So for a whole two weeks now I have begun a journey where its not about the destination as much as it is about the journey (at least for me!). Boy does that sound philosophical or what!

It is great to hear all of you speak of the greatness of playing for the sake of playing because that is where I am at!..

So far I have been reading and watching videos and learning that it is a lot harder than it looks. Already I have had a couple of people ask me to bring my congas and play with them - but good grief its only been two weeks! My sixteen year old son came in the other day while I was playing with a CD - His comment was encouraging - "WOW Dad - that really sound good!"

But maybe I should go and just try and see what happens. I'm looking for an instructor and just wanted all to know that this anglo saxon Protestant white boy has a liitle rhythm and looks forward to reading and getting much more great advice and encouragement from this forum - Congabebe - you go girl! - you and others here have encouraged me GREATLY - It's about the journey not the destination!

Larry D

[JohnnyConga]

Thank you all...Glad to be of Service to you......Keep on Jammin!......At your Service. JC JOHNNY CONGA....MONGO LIVES!....

[Michael S]

Welcome aboard Larry; this Forum and its members are excellent. (From another 47 year old, white anglo-saxon, albeit atheist!)
Fish, you are absolutely right and are not alone, I suspect. that "&" note after the two is an awkward thing to play. You could try a ghost note with the slap hand instead but I think you'd be better served by practicing that left hand toe note. It will become second nature, believe me. It just takes time.

[congabebe]

Welcome Larry! You will find so much joy in conga playing. It has been so fun to learn. I have to add something to comment on the heel toe technique. Last night my band played and my teacher brought a friend from Puerto Rico in. He had told me that this guy was so good he was learning stuff from him. So, we brought them up to play on Santana's Black Magic Woman/Gypsie Queen to play. I let this guy play my congas/bongos, my teacher played cowbell, and I played every other toy in my trick bag. It was a wonderful thing to hear. The audience went wild, the band had a great time hearing all the percussion, and it was very intense. I stood by this guy while he played my congas. I think I hit them hard, my hands kill me. He was so loud and so forceful,... I have seen my teacher before play on my congas, ... He tells me to play more distinct and hit them... I thought I was coming close. There is an edge I don't have when I play. I don't have the tradition to reference as an example, so it is really important that I got to see how a conga is played. He played with all of the tradition and the heel/toes were there, but that is not what made it so great. It was the distinction between the different kinds of strokes (open tones, slaps, flams, rolls). The placement musicially. Nothing like that can be captured off a video or instruction book. I am sure there are some great video tapes but seeing someone really play conga's first hand is much better. I just have to say there is alot to be gained seeing someone play in person. The heel/toe technique does not drive the sound, it compliments it but it is not the vocal point of the phrase like I thought it was. Like Johnny said it is a time keeper techique. Hard to concieve when you get bogged down in developing technique.

Anyway, I just had to share my new insight.
congabebe