Conga Identification - a new one - The Yellow Drum

[taikonoatama]

You haven't mentioned the thickness of the wood. This last pic seems to show it being quite thin at the bottom. Is this true for the whole shell? About half the thickness of any modern conga? That's another excellent indicator that it could be from the 50's to early 60's.

~Taiko

[blango]

Taiko,

The shell is about as thick as the thinner gon bops - a bit thicker than a valje. About like a modern Sol.

I was wondering the same thing. I think these are a really early high quality attempt at making a modern drum - high end hardware, thicker shells, fewer bands to highlight the wood selection and design of shell, a comfortable bearing edge, and larger sizes (11,12").

and the truth is, this design is close to perfect. The sound, shape, look, is all very top notch. The high and fat bellied shape is so unique. the staves must be steam bent.

Out of the 150+ tubs ive played, Id say the workmanship is just short of matt smith or jay berek - certianly better than any gon bops ive seen. They must have been made by a master.

Everything i just listed lends one to think 60's, but the reason i think it is at least as old as the mid to early 50's - I found some very old looking roofing nails hammered into a very old repair, and the patina is very telling.

this drum was refinished after this early repair. The finish is now old and very 'grainy' , like it has tastebuds all over. This is the Cedar resin leaching out of the wood and on to the surface, just under the old refinish. Cedar, like redwood, or pine, leaches resin over time.

In my experience, ive only seen this patina on cedar drums from the 50's. Keep in mind, this was the second finish.

As far as the use of harware on Congas in Rumba in the 50's: I saw a black and white of Los Papines before forming los papines - they were called Papin y sus Rumberos, and they were playing congas with modern looking high end cuban hardware.

They formed Los Papines in 1962, so this must have been drums from the mid 50's with similar hardware. I think this hardware was developed in the 40's, along with the change in timbale and bongo hardware.

WWII ship building dock workers... they had all skill and tools they needed to make the modern hardware by 1942, at least. Why not, these Cubans were used to making all sorts of things out of metal.

Have you seen the movie about cars in Cuba? every other cat is a metal worker, seemingly.

So, with all said, i still have to guess mid 50's to early 60's, but it'd have to be very early 60's, if that.

splitting hairs, yea.. but id really like to know if these drums hve an important role in the development of the conga. I have a feeling these should be in a museum, not in the hands of someone who will beat the living daylights out of them;)

What do you think?

[Omelenko]

Tony,

Those congas were made in the late 70's, they were called Afro Sound,the wood ones you have and Latin Sound were fiberglass. Luis Martinez, El Chino, here in Miami made them.
They are not high end congas, they sound good if you put a nice skin. The pair back then used to go for around $200 dollars. The wood is not mahogany or oak. About two weeks ago I found a wood one, like the one in the picture for $90 in a small antique store that was going out of business,it had 7 lugs. I didn't buy it because I have Juniors and Skin on Skin and is definitely
inferior quality when compared to those.
Dario

[taikonoatama]

What do you think?

I didn't have time to reply when I read this this afternoon, but I was going to say, "I think I'd like to hear what Dario has to say." I don't necessarily always agree 100%, but he's got more knowledge about old drums than just about anyone here.

You have to admit that the shape makes better sense with a later time line - the drums I've seen from the 50's were more barrel-shaped, with lower bellies than yours. It's hard to imagine these being some futuristic prototype or something, having a shape we then don't see for another 10-15 years. That being said, there is the old hardware and patina and other clues you found that imply an earlier date. Confusing, to be sure.

Dario, what else can you tell us about Luis Martinez? Where is/was he from? What kind of wood did he use? Anything else?

~Taiko

[blango]

Dario,

Thanks for your input. Im happy to find out who made this drum and when, and id rather know it was made in the 70's in the states than have a false idea it might be 50's cuban.

This conga is not Mahogany or Oak, 100% sure.

Nor do any congas made in the us in the 70's use square bolts, or bulbous galvanized standard screws. ??

Short of you posting a pic of a Luis Martinez drum, I cant believe this drum is US 70's.

According to your time line, the drum must have been refinished in the late 70's or 80's. Not nearly enough time to get the patina it has.

What about the odd sizes, just short of 30" tall, just short of 11" and 12" width. Seems metric, ala Soviet infuence. Every US drum ive seen has been in exact inches.

Thanks for the input, but you have to back this one up, as there are too many holes in your theory.

Here is a mexican drum with the same wood. Certianly not Mahogany or Oak. It is the same wood as the heavily painted Cuban tub with retro hardware you sold a cat in st. helena California, if you remember that drum.

Your comment about the quality of these drums could not be more off.

Like i said, it is second to the Matt Smiths, Junior, or the Jay Bereks of the worlds. But it is, without question, of better quality than 60's gon bops, for instance.

Ive played for over 30 years, and over 20 gigging professionally. I know what quality is.

Ive played most every tub made these days, matt smiths, berek, moperc, juniors, isla, sky, and many others. I know a quality tub when i see one, and this is a very well made instrument by someone who was not concerned with cost, or time of production. The bearing edge itself is a work of art.

Tony

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[blango]

Cedar

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[Omelenko]

Luis Martinez, "El Chino", is Cuban of Chinese extraction, he is 83 yrs. old. In Cuba he was a guitar maker and he still does that. I buy my conga/bongo skins from him. He travels to Mexico frequently to buy skins and guitar supplies.
Chino started making Latin Sound congas (fiberglass) in the mid 70's. Molded after fiberglass LPs,cheaper in price.They sounded good,he made small quintos in the 9 to 91/2" range that sounded great in all colors.
Towards the late 70's he started making the Afro Sound wood. The barrels where made in Mexico by artisans he knew. The hardware was made in Hialeah, Fl by his son in law. Some of the bigger congas Chino put 7 lugs "a la Tata Guines" and they sound great, with a quality skin.
I could go back to the antique store to see if they still have the one they were selling. It was $90, I could buy it and then you could get it from me. Same price plus shipping. I'll go and see in the days ahead.
Que no se pare la rumba !
Dario

[taikonoatama]

Dario may be right here - I haven't seen the drums in person nor am I familiar with Luis Martinez and I don't have the expertise to really argue it - but there are still some questions.

>Towards the late 70's he started making the Afro Sound wood. The barrels where made in Mexico by artisans he knew. The hardware was made in Hialeah, Fl by his son in law.

If he had the shells and hardware made by others, what is it exactly that Luis Martinez did? Have everything made to his specifications and just deal with managing the operation? Any idea of the output?

Tony, I think you mentioned square nuts on your drums. My 50's Cuban Solis had square nuts. Same with the yellow drum. I'd somehow missed the real importance of that. It's hard to imagine those still being used in the US in the late 70's, for sure. Does anyone know when those went out of use and the hex nut became standard?

Could you post a closeup pic of your crown? I'd like to see that a bit better.

And is the metalwork on the crown, lugs, and side plates all different?

crown - high quality chrome?
lugs - crappy unfinished steel?
side plates - stainless steel?

That's sorta weird, no? What's your theory there?

~Taiko

[Omelenko]

Luis Martinez,"El Chino" and his son in law started making the Latin Sound fiberglass conga in the mid 70's, at a much reasonable price when compared to the LPs Palisades Park of the day. Latin Sounds were inferior in that they were not as heavy as the LPs, meaning that thinner layers of fiberglass were used.
Chino started introducing the Afo Sound wood conga, like the ones Tony shows in his posts, later in the 70's. Chino got a connection in Mexico where the barrels (las tinas) were made I think out of cedro (cedar)not oak or mahogany, that's one reason why I call them inferior to Junior or Jay. Another inferior aspect are the outter bands (middle and bottom). Vergara,Junior,Jay,Matthew...for the most part make the bands from stainless steel and with rivets and tight fitted to the conga. El Chino's bands are held at the end with screws and nuts and the bands are chrome pated very poorly.
I go to Chino's house frequently to get bongo heads,I'm going to try to get some pictures from when he had the operation going in Hialeah. Dario

[blango]

Dario,

sorry to question you, you are the MAN.

The person who sold these drums to me said he got them from an 85 year old cuban man who used to live in the everglades, but now lives in Hollywood FL.

It sounds dead on to me, with the Mexican connection responsible for the square bolts perhaps?

And Taikos' point about the shape - I guess this cedro can turn a nice finish bad in 25yrs or so. Nice to know.

Thank you and James very much, i am humbled by your knowledge :;):

Dario: I owe you one for this. El Chino it is!

Bytheway, these tubs sounded wonderful with crappy cp skins and a few hairline cracks, I can hardly wait to rebuild them - i have to rebuild a couple of gon bops first, so ill post this set when redone. They are live to the touch, and almost play themselves - very cool.

Taiko - Ill bring the set down to the La Pena rumba when they are done. They wont go on stage, as those Cuban cats are dangerous with a wrench!

I have a meeting with Sandy tomorrow, ill show him a pic to confirm this was his favored quinto back in the day. Ill let you know what he said.

Again, thanks for the education and for putting up with my skepticism.

Tony

[blango]

Taiko,

Not sure what the deal is with the metal work. Lugs are shitty, but the rim and side plates rock. The bands and the rim are very well chromed, i guess he stepped that up.

The lugs look like older cuban lugs ive seen with the exagerated hook at the top, another curve ball.

But to me, this mistery is solved, thanks to Dario and yourself :laugh: Much praise!

The only thing im not clear on - whats up with the seemingly metric sizing?? They are 29.75' tall, 10.85" and 11.85" as best as i can tell.

To close the loop, im going to check out my friends old supposedly cuban tub that looked identical, but with a more rum barrel like shape, and 5 bands - Ill ask him if his uncle ever lived in FL. - Ill post some pics when i get them.

Guess my search continues for a genuine old school Cuban tub.

Tony

[blango]

Here they are, all rebuilt and pretty like... I have lugs on order.

The finish was a real challenge, and i learned a lot on this project.

It had been blackwashed, deep into the shell, and then painted with stained lacquer. At first, i was going to take them down to the bare wood, but after 10 minutes i had to change course.

I went with hand sanding just to take the lacquer off, and kept the cool dark finish.

They sound so dang nice - Very lively and with warm tones. They are one of the nicest sets ive played, and im looking forward to playing these for as long as i'm alive.

oddly enough, the conga (11" cedar) sounds almost identical to my Matt Smith oak 11.75" ??? they are almost indistinguishable… odd

This weekend, i played a set of Jay's cherry congas, and they are, i think, the nicest tubs ive played - that is, untill my Matt Smith Cherry set comes later this year, anyway.

But these Luis Martinez tubs are the nicest sounding set ive owned to date - they are comfortable, light, sound great, and look oldschool! I just hope they hold up to gigging.

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[blango]

conga



Edited By blango on 1182791669

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[blango]

tumba (12.25"), yes the skin is two low - got distracted

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[taikonoatama]

Great work, Tony. Can't wait to hear them. Definitely brings these babies down to the Mosswood Park CongaBoard party.

James