Wich side of the Clave? - Do you play your Guaguanco

[120decibels]

I have spent a lot of time recently learning rumba rhythms and thier applications. Here is a topic that I don't entirely understand.

When a single person is trying to cover all three parts (tumba, tres golpes, and quinto) of the guauanco, on which side of the rumba clave (3 or 2) do you play the melodic parts of the guauanco? I have seen/heard people play the tones of the tres golpes pattern on both sides of clave.

The two sources that I looked to for answers, my teacher and the Salsa Guidebook, gave similar ones. The Salsa guidebook says that older recordings of Guauanco had the melodic bits on the 3 side while newer recordings had it on the 2 side. However, it states that research didn't uncover a reason for the change.

My teacher explained that the guauanco is adapted from bata, and when the situation is one in which you are trying to recreate the bata, you would play the melodic part on the 3 side. If you were playing a modern, more jazz influenced rumba, you might play it on the other side.

Any thoughts? Is this even understandable? I apologize if it isn't.

Thanks,

Zach

My apologies for spelling errors in the topic title! :p



Edited By 120decibels on Aug. 18 2002 at 12:24

[Mbalax]

so sorry man,i dont know if this is true, but i dont think that the guaguanco is a rhytm adapted from the bata...

[120decibels]

Mbalax,

Thanks! If I have been misinformed, I will have to search for the correct history. Just call me an ethnomusicologist!

I think that I may have simplified what my teacher said a little too much. What I meant was that I understood that guauanco, like many other Cuban conga rhythms evolved from and/or was influenced by bata rhythms. I think that one can see a lot of the elements of a three conga player guauanco in traditional three player bata rhythms.

That is not to say that I could not have been misinformed. It's happened before! :0 I will have to study my rhythm history some more.

Regardless, my question still stands. Which side of the clave do you play the tones of guauanco and for what purpose might it be played on the opposite side?

Thanks!

Zach



Edited By 120decibels on Aug. 19 2002 at 08:28

[JohnnyConga]

The approach to playing in clave is a two fold experience. One the way I understand it was in the 50's and 60's before the advent of Los Munequitos on an International level 3/2 "Havana style" clave was being used.Example is Patato y Totico-1963, where they play the guaguanco in 3/2. Then with the advent of Los Munequitos it brought about "Mantanzas style" 2/3 clave hence the turn around. There will always be a descrepancy with Bata drumming and Rumba. Though 2 different styles completly they still complement each other. The bata drums came first,I believe then Rumba. So it was natural for a Batalero to go to Rumba and put his Bata knowledge into playing .They are both about the "Conversation" between the drums. Though Rumba is not based on any particular Tonal language Bata is-Yoruba. Does this answer your question.? And always play "IN" clave and melodically of course,it's about the "call and response"....At your Service.....JC JOHNNY CONGA.....iT'S ABOUT THE 2'S AND 3'S........

[JohnnyConga]

ok REAL SIMPLE THE GUAGUANCO IN 3/2 THE TONES ARE IN THE FRONT 3 PART, IN THE 2/3 ITS IN THE BACK 3 PART....At your Service.....JC JOHNNY CONGA

[120decibels]

Thanks Johnny! That clears my guauanco questions up.

I am still going to have to do some research on the development of the Rumba and it's ties to the rhythms of Bata. That will be good for me though. I always did want to be an ethnomusicologist (or a Rock Star, or an Astronaut ) I guess I'll settle for acoustician and percussionst.

Anyway, thanks.

Zach

[RayBoogie]

Hey guys what's up!! Great topic to discuss. I don't know if you knew this, but in 2/3 (rhumba clave) can be played with the clave or against it. Playing with the son clave is more typical. Playing against the son clave is a little more challenging, but sounds really nice. Also, what I understood guaguanco is played in 2/3 (rhumba clave) not 3/2 (son clave).

[120decibels]

Ray,

I'm not sure that I understood your last post. I'm pretty sure that both Son and Rumba (in 4/4 and 6/8) clave can be played 3,2 or 2,3. In my listening and learning, I have heard guauanco played mostly with Rumba Clave.

I agree that playing against Son and Rumba clave sounds nice. It is cool when there are an odd number of bars in a phrase and, instead of transitioning with the clave, the rest of the rhythm section just plays against clave for a while. Generally, the clave turns back around (with another odd number of bars in a phrase) and the resulting tension and resolution caused by playing against the clave for a while is really cool.

I'm glad that folks appreciate this topic. I am new to rumba and new to a detailed study of Latin music, so I have lots of questions.

Thanks,

Zach

[tamboricua]

Hi guys, hope all is well! I have been following this thread, very interesting. The only type of rumba that uses Son Clave 3/2 is Yambú, as it is played in Havana. Yambú in Matanzas is a totally different entity.

Hope this helps!


Saludos, Jorge Ginorio

[JohnnyConga]

Hi guys great discussion...You can play Guaguanco in 3/2,it's just not common anymore like it was in the 60's. Listen to early Los Papines who play "Havana" style guaguanco....At your Service...JC JOHNNY CONGA....

[120decibels]

Just to punctuate this discussion, I came across an interesting recording this week. The album is entitled "Totico y sus Rumberos." Jerry Gonzalez, Andy Gonzalez, and others are featured.

On this CD you can hear the tones of the segundo played on either side of the clave, depending on the tune.

Check it out. It's a really good disc.

Zach

[tamboricua]

The same thing happens on the "Patato y Totico" album.


Saludos, Jorge Ginorio