History sub-forum - For debate and learning

[Charangaman]

Greetings all, it occurred to me that it would be useful, given the ambiguity and sometimes conflicting reports/histories - to create a sub-forum dedicated to the fascinating history of not only the Conga drum but all things connected.. The African cultures, great players/innovators, manufacturers etc...

I know many of the brothers are endowed with great knowledge in these subjects and think it would both honour this great history and provide newcomers with the truth/s about the evolutions of percussion in general..

Just a thought..

[ralph]

sounds good although it is a broad topic...if your talking about the history of the conga drum itself, at least in Cuba, they say that the modern day conga drum derived from the makuta, or yuka drums...really the conga drum itself (and rumba for that matter) is more of a congo/palo derivation (while this is not saying that it is exclusive to this one group or culture)...

taken from afrocubaweb.com:
The makuta drums, also brought to Cuba by Congo or Bantu people, are yet another forebear of the conga drums. These drums may have a tubular, cylindrical or barrel-shaped body. They have a single head with the lower end open. The head is tensioned by the heat of a fire since the membrane is tacked onto the shell of the drum. Recently produced models are commonly tensioned with a more complex system of lugs and turnscrews. In Cuba, the word makuta indicates a festive gathering. The term also refers to a kind of ritual staff . This staff or makuta is used at certain moments in the ceremony to strike the ground in a rhythmic accompaniment to a song or dance. The staff houses the supernatural power on which are centered all the activities of the Palo Order.


these were single headed drums...as opposed to the double headed bata, and similar to bembe drums although bembe drums tend to be larger and some shorter, i think there are double headed bembe drums as well...

now...what came after, was it the use of rum barrells, who made the hardware? i know Vergara...was one of the most well known conga artisans in all of history...i believe it was him who actually started making the tunable hardware..i'll leave it at that...there is a nice article by Nolan Warden also on his site...www.nolanwarden.com/info.html, this may prove worthwhile reading....Nolan goes into the idea that Yoruba derived music such as bembe and its drums may have also played a part in what we call the "conga drum" or modern day tumbadora...


Ralph



Edited By ralph on 1138983183

[Berimbau]

While we are on the topic of tumbadora history, let us not forget the important influences of the conical conga drum used in the comparsas (carnival parades) of Santiago de Cuba, or the importation of Haitian Congo and Petro drums either.
Now along with the fine work of our friend Nolan Warden, may I suggest consulting these earlier tumbadora histories as well?
Los Instrumentos published by Don Fernando Ortiz in 1955 (now out of print), Olavo Rodriguez's conga article (available in Pancho Sanchez' Conga Cook book and in an English translation on Chuck Silverman's website), and Ned Sublette's recent book, Cuba and It's Music. I always learn something new here, and would welcome a history section, it's a great idea.



Saludos,



Berimbau

[davidpenalosa]

Hi everyone,
I like the idea of a "history sub-forum". I noticed how a simple request for arrangements of bata rhythms transcribed to congas morphed into historical minutia concerning who played bata when, etc. I maybe the biggest offender.
-David

[SkinDeep]

PA'LANTE HERMANO, IT'S ALL GOOD



Edited By SkinDeep on 1139060986

[Berimbau]

Remembering that an ocean and a few hundred years of intensive development seperate them, a nice comparison between Kongo/Angolan drumming and Afro-Cuban styles is long overdue! The Yoruba connections have been done to death, sometimes to the detriment of all things derived from Central Africa cultures! This is no doubt due to the lack of English language materials on these musics.
Now for a few recorded resources on Kongo/Angolan drumming that might interest conga history buffs. Dusty Groove is now elling Maitre Nono Manzanza's ellecent Percussions Elima cd for $10! Lots of Mbonda, Luba, and ngoma drums. The older "Kongo Drums" on Occora features some great Angolan and Zairois drumming. Finally, Hugh Tracey's classic Kaleidophone Drum recordings are supposedly out now on CD, but does anyone know how to obtain them? Please add these ansd any other resources that you may know of.



Saludos,




Berimbau

[ralph]

While we are on the topic of tumbadora history, let us not forget the important influences of the conical conga drum used in the comparsas (carnival parades) of Santiago de Cuba, or the importation of Haitian Congo and Petro drums either.
Now along with the fine work of our friend Nolan Warden, may I suggest consulting these earlier tumbadora histories as well?
Los Instrumentos published by Don Fernando Ortiz in 1955 (now out of print), Olavo Rodriguez's conga article (available in Pancho Sanchez' Conga Cook book and in an English translation on Chuck Silverman's website), and Ned Sublette's recent book, Cuba and It's Music. I always learn something new here, and would welcome a history section, it's a great idea.



Saludos,



Berimbau

Berimbau,

the conical drum that is prevalent in the congo/comparsa of Santiago...doesn't it resemble an ashiko drum? and likewise doesn't that drum bear a resemblance to the bonko enchemiya? I may be way off track but i remember reading something that insinuated that abakua influenced the conga/comparsa...i probably read this wrong or imagined it...but the abakua procession or march does bear quite a resemblence to the conga/comparsa as we know it...on another note...the rumba clave is prevalent in the conga/comparsa...as well as in rumba, although they say that really originated from the rhythm played on the ekon...before that the son clave was prevalent in rumba
what came first????

Ralph

[davidpenalosa]

Ralph:
"the rumba clave is prevalent in the conga/comparsa...as well as in rumba, although they say that really originated from the rhythm played on the ekon...before that the son clave was prevalent in rumba what came first?"

Hi Ralph and all,
I believe the terms "son clave" and "rumba clave", like the 3-2, 2-3 terminology originated in NYC. I haven’t heard Cubans use the terms, except when students use them. Does anybody out there disagree?

I surmise that both clave patterns have co-existed in Cuba for some time. Both are found in Africa. Yes, it seems that the use of what we call rumba clave originated with the ekon bell pattern in abacua. I have no idea which transplanted African music introduced son clave to Cuba. It may have come from more than one source. The standard "6/8" bell pattern (which contains both son and rumba clave) can be found in the music of the Yoruba and the Congolese.

What we now call son clave was used in both yambu and guaguanco. I’ve been told Matanzas drummers say they’ve always used rumba clave however. I've gotten conflicting answers concerning this. There are recordings of Havana rumberos in the 1950's using the son clave in guaguanco. There are still Havana rumba groups that perform yambu using son clave.

The son migrated from the Cuban Oriente to Havana in the early 20th Century. Some believe that son borrowed clave from the Havana rumba. The clave pattern was specifically son clave. The son clave has functioned as a sort of "Cuban clave", a pattern that a wide spectrum of music could be related to. So much diverse music was standardized because it could all relate to clave.

The rumba clave pattern seems to be gradually replacing son clave in the role of "Cuban clave". Rumba clave is the standard in folkloric music and increasingly in popular music as well. Ever since the first post-Revolutionary music "Mozambique" appeared, rumba clave has been a common clave in popular music.
-David



Edited By davidpenalosa on 1139170303

[Berimbau]

Ralph - I would be lying if I told you that I knew much about the ashiko drum. With my extensive library now filling the reading rooms of all the fish in Bay St. Louis, I'm on thin ice here, so please forgive me.
Isn't much of the ashiko stuff related to the so-called Agudo people in the Latin Quarter around Lagos? Along with the architecture of Lagos, a strong Brasilian influence can also be detected in much of the neo-traditional music of that city. This samba feel is part of the cultural capital introduced into Yoruba society by expatriated Afro-Brasilians who arrived there in the second half of the 19th century. I think that Chris Waterman wrote about this in his excellent book, JuJu. Another excellent book by a Brasilian author (?) is also out there somewhere. Sorry that my circumstances necessitate that I be so vague.
I doubt that the bonko enchemiya or any other Abakua drums have much to do with the organological development of the tumbadoras, and I have said much the same about their supposed connection with the development of the bongo as well. A variety of historical pictures and depictions DO describe the public activities of Abakua accolytes during the 19th century Cuban Day of the Kings festival, including the famous paintings by Landaluce. These activities were concentrated around Havana, qeographically quite far from the stronghold of the comparsas of Santiago de Cuba, and to the conical conga drums to which I refered. I think that these are two distinct and seperate drum traditions, and that only the Santiago model was a player in the development of the tumbadoras.
By the time the tumbadoras became modernized with their metal tuning devices, specific African ethnic identities in Cuba began to relax somewhat, and I think that the tumbadora was percieved as a type of CUBAN drum, and NOT as a specific African drum. Because they were now considered to be more or less neutral, Abakua, Bembe and other non-Kongolese derived rhythms could be played on them without much ear of maligning those traditions. With the expanding Afro-Cuban economy, the widespread commercial availabilty of conga drums, and the conveinience and sonic consistency of the new tuning devices, the tumbadoras became increasingly irresistable to many Cuban percussionists. I think it's really that simple.
On to David's keen observations. He is ten times the musician that I could ever hope to be and his knowledge of clave encyclopedic.
I do agree that many of the asymetrical time line patterns of West and Central African cultures were and are present in Cuba, and that within these patterns is the cell of what Cubans call clave. During my field work I have also heard it rendered in both Bahian Candomble and in Jamaica. Of course the strong Cuban influence on popular music in both these countries needs to be accounted for, but I do feel that in each case African time lines have been present for generations.
Yes David I have heard that the 3/2 2/3 clave terminology was derived from some old band charts written by Mario Bauza and other Cuban arrangers, presumably to help US soloists understand what the Latins knew instinctively? It amazes me that the entire concept of clave, which as we all know, can lead to intensive debate and even violence, has only recently been so intellectualized and formalized. I don't think that Don Fernando ever talked about clave as a concept, yet what a rich and articulate system it is.
Cuban culture, like all cultures, is rapidly changing and absorbing and processing ever more infomation. That the rumba clave is "taking over" Cuban music is perhaps not so surprising. During these turbulent times, this might reflect something deep within the Cuban psyche. How does one react to and live one's life in this contemporary reality? Things must change and do change, but what can one hold on to? One may find refuge deep within the comfort zone of the traditional values of their society. Post 911 America displays myriad examples of this, and perhaps the rhythmic throb of rumba clave provides some solace to Cuba's troubled souls. If so, I say let it be. It sure beats invading another country and squandering human and financial resources on a stupid war.



Saludos,




Berimbau

[davidpenalosa]

Berimbau,
Thanks for your praise. I think that the intellectualization and formalization of the clave concept is still in its awkward stage and has not yet reached maturity. You may have noticed in other e-forums how the roof has come down on my head whenever I addressed the various contractions in the current terminology and concepts. I’ve been poised for similar reactions in this forum and have been pleasantly surprised by the openness that I have found instead.

I believe the increasing use of rumba clave is directly related to the increasing influence of rumba in both the transplanted African music and the Cuban popular music. Rumba epitomizes the Afro-Cuban rhythmic sensibility.

Fernando Ortiz made mention of the arrumbas, bata rhythms with the rumba feel, which were being played with increasing frequency at ceremonies in late 1940's Havana. The older drummers who were Ortiz's informants, decried this development because they felt that the liturgical rhythms were slowly being lost. Drummers who played bata with a rumba feel were the ones who were more likely to be hired to play for ceremonies. Which rhythms are the actual arrumbas is not stated in the writings of Ortiz, but I’m certain that they include the bata adaptation of iyesa and chachalokuafun (bata adaptation of bembe/agbe). Both rhythms clearly have "rumbaisms". Another bata adaptation of bembe/agbe: ñongo has been steadily acquiring a rumba feel over the years. The guiro caja (basically the bembe lead played on a conga) has also gradually incorporated a rumba sensibility.

Since the mid- 20th Century, nearly every innovation in Cuban popular music has involved the incorporation of modern harmonies and rumba rhythmic elements. After the Revolution this process accelerated.
-David

[Berimbau]

David,
You stated:
I believe the increasing use of rumba clave is directly related to the increasing influence of rumba in both the transplanted African music and the Cuban popular music. Rumba epitomizes the Afro-Cuban rhythmic sensibility.

I couldn't agree more with you and let us carefully notice that rumba is African music reinterpreted through the Cuban experience. No doubt that that the unconscious process in which a variety of purely African musical sources were transformed into what we now call rumba represents both the musical values of a number of specific African ethnic groups present in Cuba as well as the subsequent SOCIAL transformation of these groups into a single cohesive unit with a new identity, Afro-Cuban. Now what could be more Afro-Cuban than rumba? After that looonnnggg run-on sentance it's time for another mojito and the Superbowl. Can only hope that it will be a good game.





Saludos,




Berimbau

[niallgregory]

Maybe this is slightly off topic but i think its relevant anyway.I think the development of the bata toques with a rumba feel or rumbitas has to do with the fact they are straight forward are danceable.Not like some of the more complicated toques that are also played. People love to dance at ceremonies .When visiting havana i found it difficult to find tambors happening,out from the obvious feast days .Most of the people we hung out with where having toque de guiros, Bembes etc.Purely because they are much easier for participants to dance to.And cheaper to hold also. Niall.

[davidpenalosa]

Hi Niall,
I agree. The "guiro (bembe) step" is well known and has even become a common step in rumba. In toque de guiros this is nearly the only step the feet dance, while the upper body depicts the particular orisha being sung for.

The obscure liturgical bata rhythms are danceable, but a lot of Cubans don't know the accompanying steps. Many Cubans know the "guiro step" and like you say, it's easier. At a NYC toque in the 80's I saw the people come alive and dance each time the drums transitioned into chachalokuafun (a blend of agbe/bembe and rumba). The folks just wanted to dance rumba, who could blame them?:)
-David



Edited By davidpenalosa on 1139253838

[ralph]

At a NYC toque in the 80's I saw the people come alive and dance each time the drums transitioned into chachalokuafun (a blend of agbe/bembe and rumba). The folks just wanted to dance rumba, who could blame them?:)
-David

Dave, do you remember who was playing at the toque in NYC or at least who's crew was playing? I sometimes wonder how much bata playing has evolved already since the eighties...i was just at a toque last year where Woochie Holliday Jr (iya), Mikel Sotolongo (itotele), and this kid named Raymond (okonkolo) played most of the toque, and the apkwon couldn't have been older than 25!!!(Bembesito)...

Ralph D

[davidpenalosa]

Hi Ralph D,
I live in California and was just visiting NYC back then, checking out live music like Libre and Daniel Ponce's Jazz Bata w/ Puntilla. Teddy Holliday, a freind of my Godfather Markus Gordon, invited me to the bembe. Teddy didn't come. I took a taxi to Queens. The folks were very open and freindly, but I knew no one including the drummers. Sorry I couldn't be of any help.
-David