Traditional Rhythms versus new Rhythms

[pcastag]

Well Cuco all I can say is this, you and Johnny sure are sounding like some grouchy old men!

Anyways, I'll continue to enjoy the new stuff, you guys can sit back and say " ehhh I've seen it all before" obviously they're making music for the people that enjoy to listen to them anyways!

Andof course michel camilo picked up a lot of stuf from Noro and othe greats, just like oscar peterson borrowed from Art Tatum, etc. But I sure don't hear ANY trio from the 50's or 60's that sounds like Michels trio, and I certainly don't hear stuff from the 50's or 60's sounding like stefon Harris' band

I'll leave it at that.
PC

[Anonimo]

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[jorge]

Leedy, JC, you could also have said (and some did) that Tito Puente, Johnny Pacheco, Ray Barretto and others that our generation loved did nothing new, they just stole some Cuban son and guaguanco tunes and played them in NYC with the musicians they could get. "La salsa no existe - salsa doesn't exist" was a Cuban response, claiming that salsa was nothing new, just stolen Cuban music. Mongo just took some folkloric rhythms from Cuba and recorded them, but did not create better rumba than the rumberos in the solares of Havana and Matanzas. Mongo just played old tumbaos on top of jazz and R&B songs, he didn't create anything new. It had all been done before, he just put it together a little differently. And Tata Guines just took old Afrocuban folkloric drumming, polished it up a little (ok,a lot) and mixed it in with guaracha, son, and other more popular dance music. It had all been played before, none of his patterns were new. These were some of the criticisms of the music our generation loved at the time (I am just a few years younger than you), made by the then older generation. And some music that really obviously had never been played before, like Jimi Hendrix's guitar style, Bob Marley's reggae style, Miles Davis' Bitches Brew was just considered noise by a lot of our parents.

I, and probably you, don't believe this at all. These guys were the creative musicians of their (our) era and carried the ball way beyond where it had been before they came along. I think all of them added their own (and their musicians') creativity and made something that, although largely based on old traditions, was actually a fresh new way of playing, which extended the music to new audiences, and created a style of its own. It is very easy, in retrospect, to recognize the "classics" that have impact for generations afterward. To recognize them while it is happening, while the new style is just being developed, and to separate them from the many others trying to create a new style but failing, is not so easy. To recognize a virtuoso like Betty Carter, Ruben Gonzalez or Giovanni Hidalgo is easy by just listening to them sing or play, but to recognize which of those virtuosos is in the process of creating a new style or paradigm is not so easy.

When Rapsodia Rumbera, Yoruba Andabo, Clave y Guaguanco came out with recordings of rumba de cajon mixed with tumbadoras and bata in the early 90s, some "old skool" players hated it, saying that it was a lot of noise, Markito (Marco Herminio Diaz), Maximino and Mario "Aspirina" Jauregui didn't know how to play, there was no tumbador part, bata should not be played outside religious settings, give me Saldiguera & Virulilla & Papin & Cha Cha, generally criticizing the new styles. I wasn't there, but I am told by sources I trust that in the early 90s in La Habana, Markito in particular got a lot of criticism from the rumberos in Havana for his new style. Well times changed, and now recordings by these guys are the "classics" of rumba and the younger rumberos are taking it steps further. Markito is now recognized by the rumba community as one of the great creators of a new form of rumba that HAD NOT been played before, that has its own afinque, and IS NOT just noise.

The same kind of thing happened with Timba Cubana, a lot of people hated it when it first came out. Of course there is good timba and bad timba, good rumba and bad rumba, but the point is that even the good gets criticized by many simply because it is new and different. Some even felt that way about disco when it came out in the 70s (I still do), and were not able to accept progress and the few great creative pieces that were mixed in with the garbage that was the mainstream. Same with Hip Hop, commercial vs social commentary.

We are the old fogeys here. Leedy and JC stop being so hard line and listen to and learn to love some of the new stuff. It is NOT all the same, has NOT all been played before, and it sometimes IS creative and new. Once you learn it, some of it is as or more beautiful than what we had known and loved before. I agree 100% with you that the current younger generation has a real problem of lack of motivation and discipline to learn to play real instruments and create live music, and that this translates into proportionally more garbage than creative masterpieces. But the creativity still exists. Virtuosos continue to develop. Masterpieces are still being created that 20 years from now will be recognized as such. You can't tell me that Esperanza Spalding has not created a new paradigm in jazz, that La Timba Encendida (Adonis Panter Calderon et al) and Rumberos de Cuba can't play and are just playing noise, that Pedro Pablo Gutierrez, Mandy Cantero, Pepito Gomez, Tirso Duarte, Michel Maza, Pupy Pedroso, Manolito Simonet, David Calzado and SOME of the other Cuban Timba players are not creating something new. You just don't appreciate it. Personal preference is fine, but call it what it is and don't try to discredit all of the new music because it incorporates elements from the old. So did all the new music of our generation when it was new.

[RitmoBoricua]

Ben Harper Amy Winehouse Stefon Harris
Check em out all modern, all bad ass. Remember back int he day we also had groups like the monkeys, the archies, I think the good stuff stands the test of time, there's always cream cheese or mozarella. I prefer the mozarella.
PC

..but back in the day we had Frank Sinatra, James Brown, Miles Davis just to name a few. Who do we have of that caliber in todays generation? No doubt there is always subpar/mediocre but today it seems to be more abundant than ever. My point on this is to bring attention to the fact that school's music programs specially on public schools are going the way of the dinosaurs.

[pcastag]

Cuco, have yu heard Michel Camilo's big band? They are AWESOME and sound MILES AWAY from Machito and Tito Rodriguez ( whom I think had one of the most smoking bands at the time)

[JohnnyConga]

Ok guys ..I have been a radio DJ for over 30 years and counting I play a lot of new stuff as it comes to me some of it good some of it bad ...ex..Bio-Ritmo's new release..is so tired and boring but yet they get rave reviews, because they have been together for over 15 years???....please..I KNOW GOOD MUSIC WHEN I HEAR IT!...if it sucks it sucks!...if its good its good...John Santos filosophia Vol.. is a great recording....also i would say now, that if you heard one timba band you heard them all as well...Larry Harlow made a living out of doing Arsenios music after he died...and it;s been commonplace for years for bands to 'cover' Cuban music, it's where it started and came from ...you guys are talking apples and oranges--Michel Camillo-versus Machito';s big band...no comparison...totally different...its Ray B, Johnny P and the rest, yea they copied Cuban music and made it their own, that is musical history...there will never be another Machito or Tito Puente orch...yea we have 'off shoots' the Latin Giants of Jazz, Jose Madera(tito puente band), Manhattan School of Music Big Band, Arturo O'Farill orch and some others around the country...im still going to say where are the Innovators, arrangers, composers???....once again show me im from Missouri....yes Esperanza Spaulding is 'fresh' but to me once again nothing new in Jazz...sorry if u younger guys dont like our opinions but im sure 20 years from now you will be saying the same shit Me and Leedy are saying today..and I would bet on it...every generation has gone thru this and will continue to go thru this..Im a product of the 60's and my generation listened to a lot of original Rock, Jazz, and Latin music...How can you say it HASN'T been done before?...were you there then? NO...i was and Im still here and once again if it sucks it sucks, if its good its good.. and I base my opinion on 48 years as a professional musician and 30 years as an on radio DJ....and if i sound grouchy, then so be it arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.......

[jorge]

JC, all I am saying is that what you and Cuco are saying now is nothing new. It has all been said before. And it has been said about Mongo, TP, Barretto, Pacheco, and others that you would consider to be "original". The older generation always over-trashes what the next generation likes. So our grouchiness is nothing new either.

[JohnnyConga]

I AGREE ! HAHAHAHAHHAHA....HABLANDO MIERDA HUH?....HAHAHAHA

[Anonimo]

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[RitmoBoricua]

The older generation always over-trashes what the next generation likes. So our grouchiness is nothing new either.

You got that right now is our time to tell the younger generation how much better music was back in our formative years. I think also the older generation wants the newer generation to not forget those that came before.

[pcastag]

Michel Camillo-versus Machito';s big band...no comparison...totally different

That's exactly what I'm saying, I'm glad u finally agree JC!

but really i doubt if 20 years down the road I'm gong to be saying the guys I listen to today suck, I still love the music I grew up listening to, ACDC, Bob Marley, Lex Zepplin, old classic RUSH. No problem, there's great stuff going on in music today.

[bengon]

"We live in a decaying age. Young people no longer respect their parents. They are rude and impatient. They frequently inhabit taverns and have no self control."
-Inscription, 6000 year-old Egyptian tomb

"What is happening to our young people? They disrespect their elders, they disobey their parents. They ignore the law. They riot in the streets inflamed with wild notions. Their morals are decaying. What is to become of them?"
Plato, 4th Century BC

[Anonimo]

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[pcastag]

Classic ! You can look at some of the grafitti from pompei on teh walls, same old same ol, man hasn't change at all!

[ABAKUA]

also i would say now, that if you heard one timba band you heard them all as well...

This is really surprising coming from you!
If thats what you believe, I think its fair to say you are not quite up to speed with the current sounds coming from 'Timba/Salsa Cubana' bands of Cuba.
In fact, it couldnt be further from the truth. Maybe the music of the late 90's kinda meshed together as they were coming out of the periodo especial and they were trying to identify with the development of this new sound, but many of the top names sound different from each other, saying you heard one, you heard em all could not be further from the truth.

Manolito Y Su Trabuco have their own sound, Bamboleo & Azucar Negra have similar sound to each other however clearly different at same time, Maykel Blanco y Su Salsa Mayor sound unique though have influences of Van Van & Reve sound with their own unique touch, Charanga Habanera sound completely different to others - have you heard their latest release CD??
Los Van Van, Elito Reve y Su Charangon, Alexander Abreu Y Havana D'Primera, Enrique Alvarez y la Charanga Latina, Tirso Duarte's group, NG La Banda, Adalberto Alvarez, Suave Tumbao, Combinacion de La Habana, Alain Daniels timba group (not the timbaton band), Giraldo Piloto y Klimax, all do a different sound, Pupy Y Los Que Son Son have a clear Van Van influence due to Pupy's history with Van Van, though expanding on the sound and creating their own, however the influence is clear, I can go on and on, these are but a small handfull of current bands doing the circuit.
All the above named bands have new release CD's seperating their sound from each other. And average 1 - 2 new full album recordings per year.

Speaking of Van Van, stay tuned for their new album. (apart from the one that has just been released) Mayito Rivera has left the band, Mandy Cantero is his replacement.

Heard it all before? I sincerely think not.