Who can learn to play congas?

[jorge]

These statements were made in another thread that had nothing to do with this topic, and it was unclear who the poster was referring to, so I am starting a new thread.
"To start to learn to play conga at a late age or any other instrument it is just crazy .You will not learn the true aspects of the instruments..."
"YOU WERE NOT BORN TO BE A CONGA ,BONGO OR TIMBALES PLAY TRY SOME THING ELSE IT MAY BE BATTER FOR YOU."

While there may be a core of truth to statements like that, they are really stereotypes that are not always true and can have a negative effect on some of the exceptional people who break the stereotype. That is as bad as the Cubans saying Puerto Ricans and Dominicans can't play rumba because they weren't born into it. Or saying you can't learn radiology because you didn't take calculus and physics when you were in high school. Some of the best rumberos I know in NYC are Puerto Rican and Dominican, and play better than some of the Cubans. Not every great conga player started out as a niño rey or child prodigy or even played at all in childhood. Mongo started out playing violin, conga was not his first instrument. Armando Peraza did not start playing bongo until late in his teens. Of course, it takes many dedicated years to get good and learn to play conga, bongo or timbales. Of course, people learn better as children, and being born into a culture helps. But playing well is only partly genetic, much more important is being dedicated, finding good drummers to play with or good teachers, and spending the years and years learning the art. You don't have to be abakua to play rumba well, and some of the worst rumberos I know are abakua since childhood. There are many examples of people starting later in life, or non-Cubans playing Cuban music, who become excellent conga, bongo, timbale, bata or cajon players. They are the exceptions not the rule, but to deny that they exist is just wrong and very damaging.

An invitation to the poster of these statements and everyone else who wants to see the diversity of rumberos who can play, come to our rumba Sunday Dec 26 in NYC at the Brecht Forum, everyone is welcome, and if you can play you can play. Although it is mostly Cubans, there are Dominican, Puerto Rican, other Latino, White, African American and mixed ancestry rumberos who play great rumba. You might quibble with someone's style, but others will amaze you and everyone who lasts more than half a minute on a drum can play. Some started "late in life", there is even a singer from Venezuela who can sing guaguanco and columbia. There is a Japanese guy who started late in life and wound up playing bata with Puntilla's group who comes to the rumba in the summer. Last week there was a Cuban woman who sang a great columbia. Estamos rompiendo la rutina. People talk about Andrea Baro but very few women can actually sing columbia, and those that do are important and should be encouraged not told repeatedly they can't do it. Same with the late starters.

For those of you who continue to believe that who can and can't play congas, rumba, bata, is based mainly on age they started, ethnicity, country of origin, or race, I suggest you question your stereotypes and change the ones that don't coincide with reality. Come to the rumba and you will meet people you never would have expected to be great rumberos based on your theories. I will post the time, place and directions to get to the rumba later this week. I think you will have fun, and you just might have to revise your theory to accomodate the evidence.

[Anonimo]

POST REMOVED BY THE AUTHOR

[juancho]

Merry Christmas fellos !!!!!

Viejo Jorge, bongos and bells welcome at the BF?

[pcastag]

It's just like anything, it really depends on your inherant ability to learn, your dedication and your exposure, just like language, we all know it is much more difficult to pick up a new language the older you get, but it's not impossibe. Cuco is right in saying that the technical wizardry of today's top echelon congueros is wayyyyyy mor advanced that the early pioneers, but that deons't mean that has to be your goal. In most cases ( as is with traps) you're goign to be holding down a simple tumbao 90% of the time. That's the reality of a gigging musician. if you just want to play for fun I don't care if you're 90, go for it, but if you're serious and want to become a professional or semi-pro go for it and spend the time.
PC

[Quinto Governor II]

These statements were made in another thread that had nothing to do with this topic, and it was unclear who the poster was referring to, so I am starting a new thread.
"To start to learn to play conga at a late age or any other instrument it is just crazy .You will not learn the true aspects of the instruments..."
"YOU WERE NOT BORN TO BE A CONGA ,BONGO OR TIMBALES PLAY TRY SOME THING ELSE IT MAY BE BATTER FOR YOU."

While there may be a core of truth to statements like that, they are really stereotypes that are not always true and can have a negative effect on some of the exceptional people who break the stereotype. That is as bad as the Cubans saying Puerto Ricans and Dominicans can't play rumba because they weren't born into it. Or saying you can't learn radiology because you didn't take calculus and physics when you were in high school. Some of the best rumberos I know in NYC are Puerto Rican and Dominican, and play better than some of the Cubans. Not every great conga player started out as a niño rey or child prodigy or even played at all in childhood. Mongo started out playing violin, conga was not his first instrument. Armando Peraza did not start playing bongo until late in his teens. Of course, it takes many dedicated years to get good and learn to play conga, bongo or timbales. Of course, people learn better as children, and being born into a culture helps. But playing well is only partly genetic, much more important is being dedicated, finding good drummers to play with or good teachers, and spending the years and years learning the art. You don't have to be abakua to play rumba well, and some of the worst rumberos I know are abakua since childhood. There are many examples of people starting later in life, or non-Cubans playing Cuban music, who become excellent conga, bongo, timbale, bata or cajon players. They are the exceptions not the rule, but to deny that they exist is just wrong and very damaging.

An invitation to the poster of these statements and everyone else who wants to see the diversity of rumberos who can play, come to our rumba Sunday Dec 26 in NYC at the Brecht Forum, everyone is welcome, and if you can play you can play. Although it is mostly Cubans, there are Dominican, Puerto Rican, other Latino, White, African American and mixed ancestry rumberos who play great rumba. You might quibble with someone's style, but others will amaze you and everyone who lasts more than half a minute on a drum can play. Some started "late in life", there is even a singer from Venezuela who can sing guaguanco and columbia. There is a Japanese guy who started late in life and wound up playing bata with Puntilla's group who comes to the rumba in the summer. Last week there was a Cuban woman who sang a great columbia. Estamos rompiendo la rutina. People talk about Andrea Baro but very few women can actually sing columbia, and those that do are important and should be encouraged not told repeatedly they can't do it. Same with the late starters.

For those of you who continue to believe that who can and can't play congas, rumba, bata, is based mainly on age they started, ethnicity, country of origin, or race, I suggest you question your stereotypes and change the ones that don't coincide with reality. Come to the rumba and you will meet people you never would have expected to be great rumberos based on your theories. I will post the time, place and directions to get to the rumba later this week. I think you will have fun, and you just might have to revise your theory to accomodate the evidence.

jorge,
This topic is a gross generalization. Ones ability to learn - no matter at what age - is the determining factor - granted the individual has the adequate desire to learn. Also, who determines what level of success is enough? Your statement "People talk about Andrea Baro but very few women can actually sing columbia, and those that do are important and should be encouraged not told repeatedly they can't do it. Same with the late starters." very few woman can actually sing columbia, sounds as if it is also an over-generalization. True, I don't hear many woman singing columbia's, but I don't hear that many singing guaguanco either. What is that based on that "very few women can sing columbia"? Is it just traditional for males to sing most leads in rumbas?

"

[bongosnotbombs]

These statements were made in another thread that had nothing to do with this topic, and it was unclear who the poster was referring to, so I am starting a new thread.
"To start to learn to play conga at a late age or any other instrument it is just crazy .You will not learn the true aspects of the instruments..."
"YOU WERE NOT BORN TO BE A CONGA ,BONGO OR TIMBALES PLAY TRY SOME THING ELSE IT MAY BE BATTER FOR YOU."

Someone that truly loves music and the conga drums would never make such a statement. The joy of music is for everybody no matter the instrument or the age.

[jorge]

Juancho,
No we generally don't use bongos or bells in the rumba, just congas, cajones, chequere, cata/sticks and clave. Occasionally we use a bell on Abakua songs or sometimes as part of the guagua. Although the rhythms are modern rumba not typical old school guaguanco, we still keep a pretty traditional instrumentation.

QGII
Read my post again, you are basically agreeing with me. As far as over-generalizing, I am definitely generalizing, but it is a correct generalization not an over-generalization. Columbia is traditionally sung, played and danced by men, maybe due to the strong Abakua influences. I have heard many more women sing guaguanco than columbia, but it is also true that most rumba singers and drummers are men in general. There are a few women's Afrocuban folkloric groups that are challenging this tradition, and my post is encouraging them, not discouraging them. I heard a woman from Philadelphia play Iya at a tambor aberikula a few weeks ago, two other women on itotele and okonkolo, they sounded great. Obviously no women ever play bata at a tambor de fundamento, but there are women with the talent and skills to do that very well if the religion allowed it. It is not my place to challenge gender roles in the religion, but that has been taking place over the last couple generations in Cuba and here. Most of those women started playing in their 20s or later to get back to the original over-generalization that started this.

[Quinto Governor II]

Juancho,
No we generally don't use bongos or bells in the rumba, just congas, cajones, chequere, cata/sticks and clave. Occasionally we use a bell on Abakua songs or sometimes as part of the guagua. Although the rhythms are modern rumba not typical old school guaguanco, we still keep a pretty traditional instrumentation.

QGII
Read my post again, you are basically agreeing with me. As far as over-generalizing, I am definitely generalizing, but it is a correct generalization not an over-generalization. Columbia is traditionally sung, played and danced by men, maybe due to the strong Abakua influences. I have heard many more women sing guaguanco than columbia, but it is also true that most rumba singers and drummers are men in general. There are a few women's Afrocuban folkloric groups that are challenging this tradition, and my post is encouraging them, not discouraging them. I heard a woman from Philadelphia play Iya at a tambor aberikula a few weeks ago, two other women on itotele and okonkolo, they sounded great. Obviously no women ever play bata at a tambor de fundamento, but there are women with the talent and skills to do that very well if the religion allowed it. It is not my place to challenge gender roles in the religion, but that has been taking place over the last couple generations in Cuba and here. Most of those women started playing in their 20s or later to get back to the original over-generalization that started this.

Jorge, I only took issue with you personally on your statement about women singing columbia. Can you clarify that statement? Is it your opinion that they don't sounds as well as men singing them? If the tradition does not allow for more woman to have the opportunity, it can not be assumed that men are inherently better singers of columbia's, even by a subjective analysis. The only female sung columbia that I can immediately recall is on the Afro-Cuban De Matanzas CD Raices. It is sung by Delores Perez I believe. That song is as moving as any columbia I have ever heard. Ont he other stuff I believed I understood your position, and was just reiterating it.

[bongosnotbombs]

What I inferred from Jorge's statement regarding women and Columbia, is that the reason that few women can actually sing columbia is not that they can't sing Columbia because they are women, but that women tend not to sing Columbia at all. It seems more a matter of choice than an issue of gender inequity; Columbia being traditionally a more masculine musical form.

[windhorse]

I think that the more new things you start as you advance in age, the better. It's the learning that is both the most courageous part, and also the most rewarding! NEVER STOP!

and Feliz Navidad Todos!

[Anonimo]

POST REMOVED BY THE AUTHOR

[Quinto Governor II]

Jorge,
Could you clarify for me what you meant by "can't sing columbia" Thanks!

[Joseph]

I think that the more new things you start as you advance in age, the better. It's the learning that is both the most courageous part, and also the most rewarding! NEVER STOP!

I've always been interested in the mechanics of the learning process.
I recently read a book "The Talent Code"
Has a lot of relevance to the subject at hand here.


"This is a remarkable—even inspiring—book. Daniel Coyle has woven observations from brain research, behavioral research, and real-world training into a conceptual tapestry of genuine importance. What emerges is both a testament to the remarkable potential we all have to learn and perform and an indictment of any idea that our individual capacities and limitations are fixed at birth."
—Dr. Robert Bjork, Distinguished Professor and Chair of Psychology, UCLA

[jorge]

Leedy, I went through all my Celeste Mendoza recordings and could not find one columbia. I have never heard La Reina del Guaguanco sing columbia, but then I have only heard her recordings and never live. Have you heard her sing a columbia live, or do you know a recording of her singing columbia? I would love to hear it. Crazy as she was, she was a monster singing guaguanco.

QGII, I did not say women can't sing columbia. There are very few people in the world who can sing or dance columbia and almost all of them are men. My speculation on why that observation is true is that columbia has traditionally been a men's dance, heavily influenced by Abakua. There have been a few women who have broken this traditional barrier, and I was saying that breaking those barriers is a good thing, not that it can't be done.

Here are two great columbia dancers, Pupy Insua and his son Stevie Insua. Stevie was playing quinto, dancing and singing with us at the Brecht Forum rumba last Sunday and will be back next Sunday Dec 26. Un rumbero completo. Leedy, you should postpone your other commitment and come play with us. Stevie is here from Italy and I don't know how long he will be staying. I promise you we will both learn something.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qH6muoChmpI&feature=related

http://newyork.going.com/event-868180;Afro-Latino_Cafe_w_Special_Guest_Stevie_Insua?src=v_wpe_nyc_868180_1aik6o79mw4k0#profile_events_portlet"><img%20src="http://newyork.going.com/badges/event-868180;Afro-Latino_Cafe_w_Special_Guest_Stevie_Insua/src-v_wpe_nyc_868180_1aik6o79mw4k0/style-1/show_flyer-1/format-img/badge.jpg

[TONE74]

"One final issue to mention Cubans there is a Raf of Cuban that know how to play and play very well and there is another that are just bs you put them to play with a band and they can not cut mustard ."

I would say that happens in every country, no? and I'm 100% sure it happens in yours.

" Rumba is not the only music in this world and this what they only know Rumba y Columbia ."

You can't be for real. Cuba has more musical variety than most countries.

"Puerto Ricans and Dominicans have gotten far in music much feather than Cubans."

I agree here in the US Cuban music gets no air time.

"Cuban music has recent came out 20 years and are reinventing with music and truthfully some sounds good other is crap."

Cuba has never stopped innovating cause you haven't heard it doesn't mean its not happening. Of course some sound like crap so does the Puerto Rican one and Dominican. Remember though, some people like crap and I respect that.

"Same with Japan and china they have trade with Cuba many travel to Cuba and pick up from Cubans many play well and many are crap."

Who Orquesta de la luz? come on bro that s probably the only one and I wouldn't even pirate their cd.

Like La Original de Manzanillo says " Original soy Yo Que no me Parezco a nadie" another thing people talk shit that Cuban music is this and that then dont play it. Bata is Nigerian not Cuban I agree but why you playing the Cuban one and not the Nigerian. Always downplaying Cuba's contributions and calling it "Latin Music" when talking about "CUBAN MUSIC" thats right I said it.
I would love to see a throw down between PR's and Cuba's bands live on stage