Students playing hookie - Where are all the good students

[blango]

I would like to hear what others have experienced regarding the lack of quality students.

Is it just me, or do we all have to put up with canceled lessons, lazy students, no shows, etc.

Man, when i study, i show on time, every time, with recorder and notepad in hand. I do my homework, pay in full and never cancel. Whats the deal, am i really that unusual?

I know, musicians... cant count on them to brush their own teeth.... but i want to hear if anyone has better luck than I.

I did change how i charge, and that seems to help.

I have them prepay lessons and it works well, as they dont cancel as much.

first lesson is $100, paying for the first hour, and prepay for the second lesson. The next lesson is $50, so they are actually always paying for the next lesson, if you follow.

If they cancel, i keep the prepay $50 and if they want to continue, they pay the $100 again the next lesson - putting $50 in the bank for the following lesson.

It only costs extra the first time, after that its $50 each time if they show or not.

It seems to be helping, but i would like to hear what you all do. how you charge, if you travel, or they come to you. etc.

Half of my obligation to the tradition as a 'keeper of the flame', is to teach. If i do it for free, it is not valued as it should be, so i have to charge what i think is a fair rate for my experience and knowledge. I never charge more than others with more experience in the area.

I charge $40 - $50 an hour, but i dont charge for up to a half hour of over time, if we need it.

Id love to hear what you all charge, your experience with students and any stategies you have developed to motivate your students to actually learn the material.

much love,

Tony

Attachment: http://mycongaplace.com/forum/eng/uploa ... 0820_o.jpg

[JohnnyConga]

Less is more!....IMHO your charging too much....I charge $40.oo for an hour and a half lesson....your gonna scare them away charging that much...I currently have 12 students on a regular basis and I have one coming in from San Diego to spend a week in my home for my "Conga Intensive",because less is more!.....also it might help if u have references from other students you have taught that will talk about their experience with you...and how it helped them....you asked....Johnny Conga...

[blango]

Thanks for the input JC.

12 regular students .... mmmm ??? do you mean a group lesson, or 12 private students?

So i take it you dont have a problem with students canceling? Cool for you, you must be great, or you are teaching in a convent.

Im not sure what you are saying really, less is more... wouldnt you charge more if you want fewer students? or charge less and turn people away?

Also, i think this might be apples to oranges... Do you teach Cuban folklorico, or just how to play the congas?

$40 is my usual charge for an hour and a half if i dont travel, i think thats reasonable, given my experience and from whom i have studied. If some poor cat is really into the tradition, id teach for free, as long as it is respected.

I dont know of a teacher that charges less than $35 an hour no matter how little they know. I also dont know of a teacher who has as many students as you, and has no problems with cancellation - including the very top cats.

Mike Spiro is $100 and hour, believe it or not. He's at the top of the chain, as far as price, but more power to him, he is worth every penny if you dont have access to the tradition any other way.

JC, how many people in your area can teach Cuban folklorico? 2? 3? Why not charge $100 to those who can afford it?

Tony



Edited By blango on 1197916255

[JohnnyConga]

I'll answer this from the bottem up .... I WOULD NEVER CHARGE $100 BUCKS for a lesson , no matter how much money people have...for me it's the passing on of a tradition, not a way to bankroll myself...I wear many hats beside teaching....I have 12 ongoing individual students, they have never cancelled and one has been with me for over a year, who i only charge now $30.oo an hour, now. I know quite a few teachers that have as many students as i do....Yes I do teach "cuban folklore" as well as "how to play the congas", as well as a whole lot more.
I would say that I am a very good player with 44 years of playing experience. I am also a good teacher that has had many students that go as far back as 1972....and some have gone on to have successful musical careers. I teach in my "attic convent studio" ...any more questions?.....Johnny Conga



Edited By JohnnyConga on 1197945996

[yambu321]

I AGREE WITH JOHNNY CONGA. YET I CANNOT MENTION HOW MUCH I PAID FOR MY LESSONS BY THE TOP TWO RUMBEROS IN SAN DIEGO. BECAUSE IT WAS TRULY LOW AND REASONABLE. YET, I TRULY DO HAVE THE GREATEST ADMIRATION, AND RESPECT FOR MY TEACHERS BECAUSE OF THAT. STUDENTS ARE PEOPLE. THEY ALL COME WITH THERE OWN BAGGAGE. WHEN A STUDENT HAS A BACKGROUND LIKE MINE, WITH A TRUE LOVE FOR THE ART, IT'S A NO BRAINER. BUT WHEN SOMEONE JUST THINKS THEY MAY WANT TO LEARN, OR HAVE A SHALLOW FEVERISH DRIVE, THEY WILL NOT LAST BECAUSE IT'S NOT IN THEM. SOME ALSO HAVE UNFORTUNATE CIRCUMSTANCES, AND SO FORTH. WHY DO WE TEACH? IS ANOTHER EXAMPLE. IS IT FROM THE HEART AND SOUL LIKE JOHNNY CONGA AND MY TEACHERS? WHERE THEY DO IT FOR THE LOVE OF THE ART, WHILE ALSO EARNING EXTRA CASH, OR IS IT MOSTLY ABOUT THE MONEY? STUDENTS ARE LIKE REGULAR CONSUMERS. THEY WILL GO WHERE THEY WILL FEEL BEST. LESS IS MORE BECAUSE A TEACHER THAT IS ALWAYS OPEN, HONEST, AND UNDERSTANDING, WHILE CHARGING FAIRLY AS WELL. WILL IN THE LONG RUN BENEFIT FROM HAVING MORE STUNDENTS, AND FINER ONE'S AT THAT.

CHARLIE "EL COQUI" VERDEJO



Edited By yambu321 on 1197981195

[blango]

Wow JC,

12 regular students and they never cancel.... I bet those nuns rip!

To imply that one does this to bank roll and not for the love and respect for the tradition is simply a silly statement.

According to JC, his 12 students made him 5k in a year. at $100 an hour he would have made at the most 12k. bank roll ?? please.

Charlie - What 'extra cash' are you taking about? cash outside of your day job???

By the way, love does not pay the bills, and if we expected all the top cats to have day jobs, we would truly be poor.

Perhaps its cheaper to live in your area. Cats like Mike Spiro, if not charging that much, would have to get day jobs and wouldn’t continue to contribute to the tradition so profoundly. That is not what students like me want them to be doing. I want Mike to study all day, play, travel to Cuba and study more. All so he can share his knowledge with us and pay respect to the ancestors by furthering the tradition.

I personally dont want to see any master live off his wife’s income, or have trouble paying rent, as at least two of the grand masters of this tradition (to remain nameless) do just to get by in this area.

By the way, i never play for free, for the same reasons. Obviously, economics is a part of life, this tradition included. i find it odd that people will pay a plumber $60 an hour, but expect a Cuban master to teach for less.


T

[bongosnotbombs]

The only teacher's in the bay area that I know that charge less than blango teach group lessons.
One teacher charges $15 for a 2 hour class, he usually has about 10-15 students,
so at the low end he's getting $75 an hour.
Anyways, with voluntary lessons which don't have consequences for not going, students can flake for sure.
I use to teach martial arts for free when I was a university student, and had the same problem.
Making students pay in advance? It's been working for universities for a while now.
Personally my classes are the highlight of my week, I hate missing them.
Once I get enough from these group lessons, I'll be moving on to one of the higher charging instructors in the area.

[pavloconga]

Hi blango,
How goes it?
Like yambu says, 'students will go where they feel best'.

So, I would first look at what and how you are teaching, and the content, quality and value of what you are teaching rather than what's up with the students.

Here are just a few questions about teaching that you can ask yourself:

How do you teach?
For example:
Do you plan your lessons?
Do you love to teach?
When it comes to teaching are you a 'natural'? (a great player is not necessarily a great teacher)
Do you set goals for your students to achieve in the lessons?
Do you give them 'homework' and require them to practice to attain the next level?
Do you give feedback? i.e. praise and constructive criticism?
Do you develop different teaching strategies to suit different students?
Do you have sufficient knowledge and experience to really inspire your students?
Do you strike the fine balance between challenging your students enough while not overwhelming them?
At the appropriate level of development (and not before) do you supply written notation of what you are teaching for your students to have as a learning reference?
Do you have really solid technique and rhythmic knowledge?
Do you ask for feedback from your students as to what they like and don't like about your teaching style and methods?


I also ask : Why does JC not have people cancel on him? I'd say it must be because he is a really good teacher!

I also tend to agree with JC on how much you are charging - it does sound a little steep to me. Having said that, I don't know what your skills and experience are, your teaching methodsyour musical history or who you have learned from etc. You may be worth every cent.

cheers
Pavlo



Edited By pavloconga on 1198020329

[vinnieL]

Sorry but a lot of teachers and guys that are gigging are working day jobs. This is nothing new. My old trumpet teacher worked for the cable company and one of my co-workers is an amazing piano player/teacher. I'm sorry $100 an hour if i had that kind of money and someone told me thats what they charge for a lesson i would walk away. You could spend a month in Cuba learning and get more out of that than spending that kind of money for a single weekly lesson. The percentage of musicians that can actually earn a good living just playing or teaching music is very small.

[bongosnotbombs]

Micheal Spiro can charge $100 per lesson because he is in demand.

You know like supply/ demand.

He is an educator and musician of the highest quality with impeccable credentials.

I know several people that take or have taken lessons from him. None of them say it isn't worth the price.

Going to Spiro is like going to Harvard.



Edited By bongosnotbombs on 1197998565

[JohnnyConga]

I would also like to add that "personality" has a lot to do with teaching and the response received....for me my reputation precedes me, plus I use references also to obtain students...I also believe guys like Spiro actually charge that much so they won't be bothered, cause he is so busy doing clinics and other stuff that possible nets him about $80,ooo grand a year, he don't really need the money then for teaching....IMHO....as i Have said many times "because you may be a player, does not mean your a teacher, as well"!....I have spent the past 30 years "honing" my teaching skills and have a very proven method of learning(also based on the "Cuban"method of learning,along with mine)....Johnny Conga....

[blango]

Pavlo, nice to hear from you. Hope you are doing well down south!

Yes, you have many valid points, thanks for the input. I think i simply and deeply care about the tradition, and i guess i expect people to study and learn the material. Perhaps this is my bad. Im not into going over the same thing, due to lack of homework, and simply collecting their money. I know, that if one has several students, this will be an issue with some of them, without a doubt.

This material is not easily assimilated, and many students do not put in the required time. Im not into teaching for the sake of teaching, i teach to pass on the tradition to future students. I love this material and have a very solid way of teaching the inexperienced from the ground up. It just takes work on their end, and time to watch, listen and practice.

I set them up with exercises, listening material, shows to see, other recommended teachers etc. I do my best to 'open' the tradition to them, as Regino Jimenez taught me.

Admittedly, i have not learned how to strike the balance between overwhelming them and challenging them at the same time. I think this is something i can improve on, for sure.

As far as technique, I was taught by Babatunde Lea, who learned directly from Giovanni Hidalgo, so it cant be more solid. I studied folkloric traditions from Regino Jimenez, Carlos Aldama, Sandy Perez and Chris 'flaco' Walker (student of Regino Jimenez, and Pancho Quinto), cant get better than that. I plan on furthuring my study with a trip to Matanzas to study with the Villamil family this year.

Ive gigged professionally for 20 years etc. i have the creds. I think i expect too much from my students. I guess i expect them to study as hard as i do.

Some students need monthly checkups and instruction, some need less. I know i tell my students if they are wasting money by taking lessons when they have not progressed. They need to practice and study to learn, not just pay for lessons and go through the motions. This tradition is too important to be taken lightly, for me.

Perhaps i am too honest with them, ive never been one for hand holding. Its not for children, as one of my students says repeatedly.

The best teachers i know are REALLY hard on their students, not nearly as patient as i am. Ive been screamed at repeatedly by one of my teachers, and i go back to him regularly, as it makes me a better player without a doubt. The more demanding the teacher is, the better he is, to me. This music is not learned through passive part-time casual learning.

Every master drummer i know has the same problem as i with finding quality students. Just ask them. Just to be clear, i am not a master of this tradition, without a doubt. In my eyes, there are only four or five master drummers in the bay area, and very few outside of NY, Miami, NO and LA.

I know a few cats, like Santos and Vilato who rarely teach at all, due to the frustration i am expressing.

I dont think JC is on the level, sorry to say. No matter how good someone is, people cancel from time to time. Personality helps, but so does honesty - ie, i know i can be a real ass sometimes, but im not one to be silent when things smell fishy. It would be nice to have a honest discussion about this.

Spiro is like going to Harvard, and is worth every penny, as Bombs mentioned. I also know several of his students, and they are all very grateful to pay the 100 duckets. I think my $40 for an hour+ is reasonable. I get $50 to $100 an hour to gig, why should i charge less? This is not charity work. I often think, when someone asks me to play for free, that they themselves dont significantly value art in their lives. ..just my honest opinion.

Love to hear all the input, thanks to all for responding, good food for thought.

Tony

[JohnnyConga]

Ok Blango I'm not gonna say I have "never" had a cancellation, of course i have,but not with my current bunch of students......and not because Im not a good teacher, but mainly because they realize that learning to play the drum is not as easy at it looks..and when they sit with me they find that out right away,so they understand from the beginning what they are getting into...and Im as honest as the day is long my brother, ask anybody that knows me and Im from "'Da Bronx", and we dont' **** around either....Johnny Conga... as they say "to each his own"....

[blango]

Nice to hear JC,

I wish you all the best. Sorry for the pissy tone...

I do have much to learn from cats like you, who have figured out how to pass on the tradition in a more effective way. Thank you for teaching. We are all bothers here, the way i see it.

Peace,

Tony

[pavloconga]

Hey blango,
Thanks for your excellent response.

Sounds like you've got it all together there bro: your cred, history, experience, knowledge etc etc, all sounds spot on to me!

Maybe it's a lot to do with contemporary western culture and so many people (esp. young cats) wanting 'instant results' without putting in the hard yards.

It's worth remembering most kids coming to learn this instrument don't even know what they don't know.

Many people see the instrument as simple and easily mastered, just something to bang away at on stage or at a drum circle (of course, nothing could be further from the truth). At school workshops I have not yet come across a kid who can correctly name the instrument as a conga instead of a 'bongo'.

I remember in my first year of playing having a lesson with one of Australia's best percussionists Ray Periera. I was so amazed and inspired by his skills, that in my naivete I had to ask, "How can I learn to play like you?" His no bull%#@% response, which really stayed with me was, "Look man, there are no shortcuts. If you want to be a good player it takes a lot of practice, a lot of hard work. It takes a long time to become a really good player."

The more I learned, the more I realised how true his statement was and how much I didn't know.

Ray became my main teacher for several years. And like you said about your best teachers, he was a tough teacher, demanding, always expecting perfection and lots of practice. Even more so with my teacher 'Macho' in Havana - pushed me in every sense to become a better player and wouldn't let up on me until I 'got it'. I wouldn't have wanted it any other way.

It may just be something we have to accept as teachers of this instrument/tradition that there are very few students who come along who have the same fire in their belly as we had. The kind of student that we are willing to teach for free!

Drummers are a rare breed to start with - drummers with dedication and hunger to learn are even rarer.

I have only come across 2 of those so far, one of them was a youngster of 11 years from a school performance workshop recently. That kid, a 'problem kid' in the school, was on fire to learn. The teachers were very surprised, later saying it was the first thing at school he had shown a real interest in.

As well as approaching me directly after the show, he ran alongside my car as I was leaving the school just to make sure I left my contact details with the principal! I'm still waiting to hear from him... I heard later his dad (from a non western culture) does not want him to learn the congas.



Edited By pavloconga on 1198093649