La Rumba in Africa - Some pics from drum ensembles in Africa

[pavloconga]

Community pics:

Attachment: http://mycongaplace.com/forum/eng/uploa ... 3-nung.jpg

[percomat]

Thanks for your answer Pavlo. I know that guaguanco and rumba is cuban (my favorite rumba-album is actually named la rumba es cubana and I know that some peaople gets angry if you suggest something else), but I've also heard Africans who talks about rumba without refering to the cuban styles and I mean that should be ok, I guess the word rumba can mean a lot, as it also did in Cuba before it became tree styles of playing.

But for the moment I'm more interested in how musicstyles are teached. And as said, in Cuba I was very surprised that almost everyone I met, when asked to play guaguanco, played the same pattern and said it was a havanero, isn't that strange? And when I heard rumba (as for example at teatro nacional, cabaret las vegas, palenke, uneac or callejon de hamel) I heard mostly other patterns. Because the classic havanero-pattern isn't (of course) representative for guaguanco. To me the pattern seems very effective for pleasing us foreigners. "This is la rumba, now you know it." And then we can go back to our contries in the belief that we know rumba even if the pattern isn't played on the rumba-albums we also bring back. Well, my point is that the cuban patterns and the way they are teached seems improbable lucid (proffesionalized) and I hoped that you could say something about how patterns and technique are teached in Ghana compared to Cuba?

[davidpenalosa]

percomat:
>….in Cuba I was very surprised that almost everyone I met, when asked to play guaguanco, played the same pattern and said it was a havanero, isn't that strange?

Me:
Hi percomat. No, not at all. One benefit of Cuba’s educational system is the standardized methods of folkloric instruction. If you go to study with one of the folkloric groups, you will likely be taught from the roots up, meaning that you begin with the basics, both technically and historically. That’s why a Cuban jazz drummer for instance, may be able to play all three individual bata drums, as well as play rumba. I have found that when I was able to demonstrate I knew the fundamental material, many Cuban masters opened up and shared information freely. In fact the amount of information freely given was usually overwhelming. The myriad rumba inventos you find in Cuba are based on Matanzas and Havana guaguanco of the mid-20th Century. I am certain to even begin to play contemporary rumba you must understand and play these older "templates". It’s like the necessity of learning to play through the chord changes of jazz standards before you attempt to play be-bop or free jazz.

>>>And when I heard rumba (as for example at teatro nacional, cabaret las vegas, palenke, uneac or callejon de hamel) I heard mostly other patterns. Because the classic havanero-pattern isn't (of course) representative for guaguanco.

The exact opposite is true. This is where it comes from. Don’t sell the older guaguanco short. It’s your ticket to the more complex rumba expressions you desire. Do you have recordings of the classics, like the Los Muñequitos and Los Papines from the 1950’s? The classics are not diminished by modern rumba. There are plenty of people who believe that the older and simpler styles have not been surpassed. It’s like Bach and Stravinsky; Stravinsky’s masterpieces have not diminished the genius of Bach. Most importantly, you don’t have a Stravinsky without first having a Bach.

>>>To me the pattern seems very effective for pleasing us foreigners.

I can understand your frustration in not being shown the hipper material, but the Cubans learn the basics first. That’s the way to go.

>>>…I hoped that you could say something about how patterns and technique are teached in Ghana compared to Cuba?

I have found that the Cuban and African teachers teach in basically the same way. They teach by rote. They show you the part and you play it. If they show lead drum variations they are usually part of a liturgical sequence, as are done in bata drums in Nigeria and Cuba and Ewe drums in Ghana. Most Cuban teachers don’t show how to play quinto.

I enjoy the international aspect of this forum. I’m glad so many drummers can speak English.
-David



Edited By davidpenalosa on 1137473988

[percomat]

Thanks DP, I think I have one classic from the fifties with the Munequitos, but I'm not shure. But I remember that I spent some time with them in Matanzas, including "Cha-cha" who played quinto with them in the fifties, and I have many pages with stuff I learned from them plus stuff from Havana. So I'm not frustrated about just learning basics. If I'm frustrated it would be because I still havn't learned everything in the pages I brought back. But lets not speculate in frustration.

Concerning the classic havanero (I assume we talk about the same pattern), do you know how old this form is? I don`t have anything with the Papines from the fifties (I actually thought they was founded in the sixties, but anyway) did they play the classic havanero pattern as notated for example in the congabook, with the open tres-dos-strokes on the two-side of the clave?

[davidpenalosa]

>>>Percomat: Concerning the classic havanero (I assume we talk about the same pattern), do you know how old this form is? I don`t have anything with the Papines from the fifties (I actually thought they was founded in the sixties, but anyway) did they play the classic havanero pattern as notated for example in the congabook, with the open tres-dos-strokes on the two-side of the clave?

Me:
Yes they played the classic havanero pattern. I cannot say exactly when this particular form appeared. The earliest recordings of folkloric rumba go back only to the early 1950’s. The first LP was Mongo Santamaria’s "Chango" (later titled "Drums and Chants")recorded in the USA in 1954. Alberto Zayas had the first rumba recordings in Cuba (1955). The material for "Guaguancó" Vol. 1 and Vol. 2 was recored in 1956. "Guaguancó" Vol. 1 and Vol. 2 features both Los Muñequitos De Matanzas ("Grupo Guaguanco Matancero") and Los Papines (Papin y su Grupo). Go to http://www.descarga.com and do a search on "Los Munequitos" and you will find these Cds. The Munequitos tuned their drums low and they function similarly to a bass, supporting the vocals. Beautiful stuff. These early guaguanco LPs were recorded when the guaguanco was in transition; the segundo (tres golpes) was recorded on both sides of the clave. After that it was always recorded in Cuba on the two-side.

I cannot vouch for Jorge Bermudez’s "Conga Book". I know a lot of students use it and find it helpful, but I found some problems with it when I reviewed the book for descarga.com several years ago.

We are getting a little far from "rumba in Africa". Oh well.
-David

[zaragemca]

Saludos to all the brothers in percussion,in reality,(as I have said before),there were differents styles of approaching the Rumba/Guaguanco,in the Habana even in the 50's,but that knowledge was available only to the people which were there observing this jamming inside the Cuba/Tenement,some of this approaches were transported to the Comparsas,(Carnival),each neighborhood had its own Comparsa,so the percussionists and choreographers were trying all the time to project their own flavor,(again,..only the people which were going year after year and observing this process would know the evolution of this percutive patterns).There weren't interest in recording this subject at that time,so all this is only in the brain of the individuals which had the time and 'courage' to be there,including myself,(becouse many people were scared to go to this places,and for others percussionists playing at the Conjuntos, it was a 'Tabu' to go to the 'Tenements')), where this situation was taking place....At one point there was an opportunity to do a recording which Embale's Group did in the Panart/Studios in the 1950's,and for the percussionists which didn't have access to the real Rumba/Scenarios,this approach would be the one taken as general and incorporated,and later the recording of Los Munequitos de Matanzas..Dr. Zaragemca



Edited By zaragemca on 1137522697

[percomat]

Thanks DP for the tips, it's been a while since I ordered rumba-cds, but the one with both papines and los munequitos will be the next one. Thanks to Dr.Z too, even if I don't always understand what you mean. Often that is the case with my comments too I guess Peace out

[pavloconga]

Hi Percomat and David,
Thanks to every one's comments.

Percomat, I think David has answered your questions pretty well about the Guaguanco.

The only things I would add are these comments about your question below and one of David's comments about the quinto:

Percomat: >>>…I hoped that you could say something about how patterns and technique are teached in Ghana compared to Cuba?

It was my experience (apart from the individual differences with different teachers' styles), that on the whole, the teaching styles in Ghana and Cuba were basically similar. i.e. they would play or vocalise a pattern or phrase and you would repeat it until you could play it correctly.

Re David's comment:

>>>…Most Cuban teachers don’t show how to play quinto.

Regarding the quinto in Cuba, I studied with two teachers, who both showed aspects of learning about the role of the quinto in Guaguanco and Columbia. Though, their teaching and playing styles were very different.

Perhaps it was because I had the advantage of having a reasonable amount of percussion experience before going to Cuba (around 10 years playing at the time) and a reasonable understanding of the Guaguanco. I don't know for sure, but I think this certainly helped in being shown a bit more.

On the one hand, my teacher from the Conjunto Folklorico was very structured in showing me, note by note, how a series of phrases (from very simple phrases to increasingly complex) worked with the clavé. This was very valuable. I did not progress to the next phrase until I could play the previous phrase correctly with the clavé. I was not given any improvisation opportunities beyond the phrases he showed.

On the other hand, my other teacher, an elderly musician, very 'old school', would demonstrate various phrases with the rhythm. It was up to me to let it all 'sink in'. I found that hanging out with him and hearing him play in many situations was a tremendous way of learning. I think it is often underestimated just how much we learn by listening and watching. I think also after some time of studying and your knowledge reaches a certain level, it becomes so much about the feeling - playing that feeling and not over analysing it.

His other approach for the quinto would be to play a series of rapid fire phrases, which he would then have me repeat. He would then play another phrase, etc etc. The big difference with him as a teacher, was that he would insist that I spend much time with him to improvise over the rhythm - usually in continuos blocks of half an hour or more. If I showed any sign of letting up, or weakening, he would shout at me, "Fuerte! Fuerte!"
I know that he always had the best of intentions with this and I cannot thank him enough - he pushed me well beyond my usual limits and helped to take my understanding and playing to a new level.

Both these methods of teaching were very valuable and I learnt a lot through these differing approaches.

By the way, he said that when he was a boy learning from his teacher, his teacher would not only yell at him, but also hit his hands with a stick if he was letting up or playing incorrectly!!

best regards to all

Pavlo

[Smejmoon]

Both these methods of teaching were very valuable and I learnt a lot through these differing approaches.

I wholeheartly agree. I find it best that things that are learned systematically and exercised a lot, get fused in live situation and changed to fit situation and person.