Traditional Rhythms versus new Rhythms

[davidpenalosa]

It's my understanding that this argument has been going on between the young and old drummers in West Africa for as long as people remember. The generational divide is nothing new. Many of todays grumpy old men were at one time, young upstarts. The upstarts of today will be the grumpy old men in the future. Most of us have a special fondness for the music we grew up with, and the music we listened to when we transitioned to adulthood. Every tradition mentioned in this thread was at one time, a musical invention, although not every invento becomes a tradition. Only time will tell.
-David

[Anonimo]

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[pcastag]

pcastag
You are comparing apples to oranges an example of what I say all the time you people talk for the sake of talking without any understanding of the topic and I am going to explain it to so that you Understand what this topic is about. Not to insult your intelligence but so that you can get a grip of thing and Play better know were and how music comes from. Many today instead of look at the past how thing were done the look at the future and forget about the pass were it came from.

Just to give you an Example so you understand ; In Cuba ( I am take certain rhythms so that you understand) back in the 1930's the Quaguanco was performed in different venues House party's, get together's .The way it was preformed was 3) drummers I) caja , Clave and multiple singers and every one enjoy them self's. This was the traditional way and still is the traditional way of playing a Guaguanco . Today the youth are bringing in to play Guaguanco Bata,timbales, bongos, Cajon and a numerous instruments that do not go there and only Clash one with the other. To a person that does not have a trained ear or better said does not know the concept of play Guaguanco it sound's good. To the one that know's what going on it a bunch of noise. What I say and many others all that noise does not make it in the real world many like it but there is more that do not like that type of music than the ones that like. Those that thrive on this kind of music have no knowledge of sound. They play Just to play with out being together a musical group is a team and when Playing all have to be on same page. And this is not happening. If you take los Papines and compare to a new group of there same caliber it will never sound the same why they all want to be stars to team there all want to be the star and it can't happen. So to compare Evolution with this not fare it's simply Bad playing .

By the way Amy Wine house was a dame good singer for you to compare to evolution she was a class act singer with problems. The rest of what you post great Jazz nothing to do with evolution but good.

My response was more to boricua, he stated all is lady gaga , no more sinatras, to me there's alwasy good music. AS far as the modern rhyths coming out of cuba some is good, some not so good. listen to yoruba andabo sing the classic perdon with cajon. It's incredible. That's a perfect example of the evolution of rumba, a classic bolero, not played in the stye of old yambu, but modern cajoneros. i love it, I've listened to lots and lots of the old stuff, papines, munequitos, carlos embale, celeste mendoza, I also like the new stugg, yoruba andabo, clave y guaguanco etc. to me it's just EVOLUTION. Change is constant, always will be. I thnk when you say to the person that doesn't have a trained it it sounds good, to one who does it clashes just really means you don't like it! No problem, you don't have to, apparantly plenty of other people do. I don't like the garbage my 13 year old daughter listens to on the radio ( OK a couple of songs are OK, lady antebellum is OK, but mostly garbage) but hey, someone likes it!

[pcastag]

Perdon, 1996, the beginning of the modern era, one of the more innovative groups with Pancho Quinto Yoruba Andabo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7bfqky_NNI

[JohnnyConga]

Pcastag..I dont know how old you are but Stefon Harris and Ben Harper ARE NOT doing anything New..ever hear the MODERN JAZZ QUARTET?...this is nothing new they are doing..it has ALL BEEN DONE BEFORE...Ben Harper my be the first Black musician to play slide guitar and I doubt that, as slide guitar has been around since the 30's..in America...all he is playing is basic Rock and Roll nothing new again...sorry I dont mean to rain on anyones parade...but show me some music that has never been played or created before and i will listen to it...im 63 and I HAVE HEARD IT ALL!....

[burke]

OK, if assuming that the folks [note plural] who say there is nothing new [or the new stuff is just cobbled together forms that suck because fused stuff generally sucks ... I guess that makes all fusion music grabage BTW], this by definition means there was some last 'new music' created at some point in the past.

My questions then are what was it, when was it created and who was the last genius?

A little sarcastic yes ... but a fair question nonetheless I think.

Cheers

Darrell

Anyone? Anyone?

images.jpg (7.63 KiB) Viewed 10874 times

[JohnnyConga]

I would have to choose Miles Davis who not only created New Jazz but changed the face of Jazz 3 times during his career and that is a musical fact.....and of course u can line them up Rahsaan Roland Kirk(last instrumentalist to play 3 saxes and a nose flute at the same time).. Rufus Harley a Black Jazz Scottish Pipes player,(he recorded on Atlantic records in the 60's the only one of his kind and none since)Cal Tjader and Mongo Santamaria that helped to create the whole "Latin Jazz' genre of music...back in the mid 50's and early 60's...for those that weren't around at that time...I was...I saw them and heard them...nothing today compares with the musicians that came out of the 50's and 60's....why? Because they were "Learned" musicians..that new their shit...unlike today where it's all imitation 3 chord bullshit...or 'cover tunes' of the past...I might be out of touch with todays music..I dont know..I know what I hear sucks...and is just simple imitation with NO innovation...my 3 congas...JC...ps I could name a bunch more of musicians that were innovative but these will do for now...

[burke]

"Rufus Harley a Black Jazz Scottish Pipes player"

Ok THAT sounds interesting [and the only one in the list I've never heard of]. Will see waht good old utube turns up for that later.

Thanks JC

D

[pcastag]

Pcastag..I dont know how old you are but Stefon Harris and Ben Harper ARE NOT doing anything New..ever hear the MODERN JAZZ QUARTET?...this is nothing new they are doing..it has ALL BEEN DONE BEFORE...Ben Harper my be the first Black musician to play slide guitar and I doubt that, as slide guitar has been around since the 30's..in America...all he is playing is basic Rock and Roll nothing new again...sorry I dont mean to rain on anyones parade...but show me some music that has never been played or created before and i will listen to it...im 63 and I HAVE HEARD IT ALL!....

Really? Heard it all? You old guys are killin me, not to be disrepectful but Connie Kay ( who I love especially since he played sonor drums ) does not sound ANYTHING like terrion gully. These guys do not sound like the guys before them, just like tony williams didn't sound like philly joe, and billy cobham didn't sound like Max roach. I mean really give credit where credit is due, i have the utmost respect for the older traditional players, it definitely has created the foundation for the new guys, but to say that stefon harris and Blackout sounds like MJQ is a bit far fetched. Listen to the album, it's awesome, and yes ITS NEW!

[pcastag]

I would have to choose Miles Davis who not only created New Jazz but changed the face of Jazz 3 times during his career and that is a musical fact.....and of course u can line them up Rahsaan Roland Kirk(last instrumentalist to play 3 saxes and a nose flute at the same time).. Rufus Harley a Black Jazz Scottish Pipes player,(he recorded on Atlantic records in the 60's the only one of his kind and none since)Cal Tjader and Mongo Santamaria that helped to create the whole "Latin Jazz' genre of music...back in the mid 50's and early 60's...for those that weren't around at that time...I was...I saw them and heard them...nothing today compares with the musicians that came out of the 50's and 60's....why? Because they were "Learned" musicians..that new their shit...unlike today where it's all imitation 3 chord bullshit...or 'cover tunes' of the past...I might be out of touch with todays music..I dont know..I know what I hear sucks...and is just simple imitation with NO innovation...my 3 congas...JC...ps I could name a bunch more of musicians that were innovative but these will do for now...

I thnk u are. There's tons of good stuff going on right now, avashi cohen, stefon harris, chris dave, eric harland, these aguys are changing the way drummers play. Its great stuff! Michel camilo is another example, who can point to me a trio from teh 60's that played like michel camilo, horacio hernandez and Anthony jackson? tell me wh they wee? there wee plenty of bad asses out there, bu man these guys have taken it to a hole nother level, ust like dizzy vs. louie, train v parker, building onteh stuff that came before, to say that no one is dong anythign new is a bit out of touch in my opinion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7lP2rz- ... re=related

Here's something off the new album appropriately titles "evolution", show me an MJQ clip where they're playing like that.

[JohnnyConga]

I'll just say One name BOBBY HUTCHERSON......to add I would also say these guys u mention are the flavor of the month let's see if they are around even 5 years from now...Bobby is still around 40 years later ..longevity says a lot about the musician...

http://youtu.be/-PhfwjPuNWU

[Anonimo]

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[burke]

Well, being also an old dude, I'de have to nominate "YES" ... don't know who would be the 'source' or who would be the inheritors ... Google "Close to the edge" .... or maybe " the lamb lies down... for genisis

wow I'm soooo old

[pcastag]

I'll just say One name BOBBY HUTCHERSON......to add I would also say these guys u mention are the flavor of the month let's see if they are around even 5 years from now...Bobby is still around 40 years later ..longevity says a lot about the musician...

http://youtu.be/-PhfwjPuNWU

Michel camilo flavor of the month? Stefon Harris flavor of the month? that's insulting. The guys already been recording his own albums for 13 years. So do you have to be old to be good? I mean really, I thought you older musicians would be a bit more open mnded than that. Michel Camilo's been recording since 1985. I'm very familiar with bubby hutcherson, milt jackson, red norvo, lionel hampton. I mean johnny wth all due respect you're sounding like you're living in the glory days of your past. these artists are incredible, go listen to some of the stuff they're doing . Like it or not it's definitely what is happening, to say you prefer the stuff from your era is fine, but these cats are not going away, trust me, I've seen stefon live, his band is definitly on another level right now and I've seen lots of live jazz from mcoy tyner to oscar peterson to jimmy bosch to cubanismo to adalberto alvarez to santana on and on and on.

[Anonimo]

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