Camaleon 3/2 & 2/3 switch question

[Tonio]

Hi David,
I agree with your statement, to a degree. I assume you like to theorize about the clave issues? If so , glad to have you on board!!
True many of us congueros get into it without realizing and or considering the clave.

But, just to let some newbies know that even the so called "esoteric" clave issues can be a rewarding and educational tool to furthur the conguero. Many drummers and occasional congueros may
neglect the fact that clave is the key.
The clave is the essence of latin(in a broad term) music. Wether it'd be a conguero or pianist, etc. Sure when venturing to fusion, and meddling of genre's on a progressive sense, things may thin out. But to be able to relate the essence of the tumbadora, clave is in the fundamental roots of drumming.

T



Edited By Tonio on 1137040582

[pcastag]

Talk about clave liscence! I have some old guagaunco recordings and remember, the tres golpes used to always be on the three side!! I still have some puerto rican friends who think that that is the correct way to play guaguanco, and that they only play tres golpes on the 2 side in matanzas. Just goes to show! The debate never ends!
PC

[davidpenalosa]

Tonio:
>> I assume you like to theorize about the clave issues?

Hi Tonio,
It’s gratifying to hear the feedback. Yes I like to theorize about clave issues. I used to hate to think about it though; I just wanted to play my drums. I had an attitude about people who overly analyzed the music; thought they were nerds who couldn’t play. Years later when I began attempting to write about the music, I found my terminology woefully inadequate. So began my journey in analysis and terminology, my path to nerdhood.

>> clave is in the fundamental roots of drumming.

No argument here. By the way, Clave License is thriving in timba, with Juan Formell being one of the most significant initiators of the trend.
-David

[Raymond]

I have noticed some people getting bored with this thread but this is a great thread because you will be amazed of the people that get crossed in the clave and look stupid....If you are a serious player you have to have notion about these times.

Yes, is boring but pay attention because the "cross" could happen to you and is not fun on stage.....Technical is boring and I am the first to admit it but be aware....

My notion regarding "jumping clave" is that is a no-no but it has been done by some of the most respected arrangers....Is it done on purpose? Don't know but happens...

In Camaleon, I have to check that...I know when you go back to the "pregon o coro" there is a break of four eighth notes, after that conga part in the middle of the mambo....I'll check it out!

Saludos!

[davidpenalosa]

[My notion regarding "jumping clave" is that is a no-no but it has been done by some of the most respected arrangers....Is it done on purpose?]

Hi Raymond,
Yes it's often done on purpose. That's what Clave License means; the composer, arranger or performer does whatever the heck they want in regards to clave. I suspect that a lot of "clave violations" on non-Cuban recordings were done out of ignorance though. Most of the problems I've encountered in Califonia bands were due to lack of knowledge.

I assume that non Cuban musicians used to break clave more because they are not Cuban. However, today the Cuban timba bands are stretching the boundreies of Clave License. There is a schism in the Latin music scene over this phenomena.

Clave License used to be a matter of 00.99% of the songs breaking clave. It hardly ever happened. Now with timba (which I like), Clave License is a common aesthetic of the genre. I'm not sure if there is a "clave rule" that's left unbroken. Should be very interesting seeing where all this goes in the next decade.

The breaking of clave in folkloric music is practically non-existent. Most people involved in this music are aware of how the guaguanco segundo moved from the three-side to the two-side. The bata rhythm for Ochun "chenchekururu" has an obscure "clave logic" and there are some drummers who play it in a more obvious (but "incorrect") relationship to clave. The cut-and-paste bata drum suite called Igbodu samples excerpts from many different rhythms, often without any regards to clave.

Aside from these clave irregularities, I've never encountered a medley of rumba or bata songs that break clave.

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ........

Wake Up!
-David

[ABAKUA]

Nerds. :laugh: :O :p

[pcastag]

Mr. Penalosa

Actually there are a few toques in the oru seco that actually "break" clave. For example the part in 7 in Inle,and Osun which has an "uneven" structure. ( in these instancesthe clave does not break, however the drums do not follow clave)

I also would disagree with you about the change in Rumba. I know it happened, but i don't know WHY it happened. In addition many people who are new to the genre might not know about the very significant change in guaguanco, and if they listened to a lot of salsa they might find many salseros (especially druing the 70's) still played the tres golpes on the 3 side, whether on the bass or congas.
PC

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ yourself!
PC



Edited By pcastag on 1137113035

[Tonio]

Nerds. :laugh: :O :p

LOL!!
Abakua, if we could jam on this site I would definately do that instead of talk about claves.
So when you jam at the house do you use wood under the drums. or directly on the carpet?

Respect.

T



Edited By Tonio on 1137123121

[davidpenalosa]

>>PC: Actually there are a few toques in the oru seco that actually "break" clave.

Hi PC,
It doesn't appear to me that we disagree on this. From my last post: "The cut-and-paste bata drum suite called Igbodu samples excerpts from many different rhythms, often without any regards to clave." In other words, the oru seco (Igbodu) breaks clave continuity in several places. Several of the transitions between rhythms within an orisha's toques do not maintain clave continuity. Do you agree?

>>PC: For example the part in 7 in Inle,

me:
As you know, the okonkolo part in the 7th section of Inle maintains clave continuity, so it's possible to interpret the itotele and iya as elaborate cross-patterns cycling over the clave-consistent okonkolo. However, that's just speculation on my part, fueled by my own need for order. I suspect that it's rather a case of serious disregard of clave (serious disregard of the main beat cycle even) similar to Regino's version of Oya and Pedro "Asthmatico"'s conversation in Obatala 1. Whatever the reason, that section is a real unique oddball! :p
I first learned that 7th Inle movement from Markus Gordon. The version he showed me cycles within an even, two-clave cycle. In his book "The Music of Santeria; Traditional Rhythms of the Bata Drums", John Amira (Markus' former itotele player) shows that version, which he believes is an older version "…rarely heard since the 1950’s" Amira says: "We do not know how the separation in styles occurred. Both rhythms seem to have existed simultaneously for many years." (pg. 39). My take is that the number of clave irregularities in the Igbodu have increased over time. The Igbodu is performed with absolute "clave license".

>>PC: ..and Osun which has an "uneven" structure. (in these instances the clave does not break, however the drums do not follow clave)

me:
That's as plausible an explanation as any, but bata melodies don't do that sort of thing outside of the Igbodu, so I seriously doubt it. I suspect that it's just another matter of "splicing" rhythms together as is common in the Igbodu.

>>PC: I also would disagree with you about the change in Rumba. I know it happened, but i don't know WHY it happened.

me:
Sorry, I wasn't clear on that point. I didn't mean most people know WHY it happened (Los Muñequitos say that one night a drummer got drunk, put the segundo on the other side and it caught on). What I meant was that most people know "HOW once-upon-a time, the segundo moved from the three-sde to the two-side."

>>PC: In addition many people who are new to the genre might not know about the very significant change in guaguanco, and if they listened to a lot of salsa they might find many salseros (especially druing the 70's) still played the tres golpes on the 3 side, whether on the bass or congas.

me:
Maybe it’s not as well-known as I believe huh?

-David

[davidpenalosa]

PS, concerning Abakua's graphic; I'm the nerd on the bottom:laugh:
-David

[onile]

One Love My Brothers!

It is such a pleasure to be able to read an incredible debate such as this one, from such knowledgable brothers as yourselves! Once again, you guys are very elloquent, and the information you provide to the rest of us here is both experential and historical, a sweet blend and a great technique for teaching!

Respect to All!

Onile!

[davidpenalosa]

CORRECTION: I mistakenly called the last section of Inle the "7th section of Inle". I meant to say the 4th section or the last section on Inle. PC called it "the part in 7", referring to the odd itotele and iya parts, that many drummers interpret as being in 7/4.
Sorry if I made an already complicated post unnecessarily confusing.

-david

[onile]

well, you'll never work in this town again buddy! :p :laugh: