How you likeVintage Ludwig Copper60sTimbales?

[thomas newton]

OK look, Matthew is happy with them or he wouldn't have let them out of the shop. You are happy with them cos you've made that plain in this thread. Your defense of them by pitting them against factory drums is meaningless really cos we all know they are completely different beasts. Speculation on how this weld might contribute to the sound is all well and good but a serious engineer will tell you that this is not a consistent weld, it's not a good one (there is spatter and burn through), it's not a good looking one and most importantly it is not repeatable, therefore the results of sound, appearance and everything else will vary from one drum to the next. There are other issues but lets leave it at that.

No disrespect to you guys, to the maker or anyone else. I'm sure they are fine for your purpose and sound great (and obviously I would only be too happy to own a set) but I stand by the above having discussed it with an ex-technician fabricator welder trained to British Nuclear Fuels standard.

Having said all that, all that matters is that they sound good so...

[waardahl]

Here are some overdue responses to the last post: First, I don't see that factory timbales and hand-made timbales are "completely different beasts". They're timbales! If you're only going to compare hand-made timbales, then you're only going to be able to talk about Matthew Smith and JCR. Perhaps there are other makers in Cuba or Venezuela. If a person is shopping for timbales there are a lot of beautiful and well-made factory models out there as well as fine vintage models which appear every day on eBay. The wholesale price on a pair of LP Tito Puente model timbales is roughly the same as the cost of a pair of Matthews. Mine were less because I didn't need a bell. So, what's "meaningless" about comparing the sound of these instruments? But there's another aesthetic at work here, too. If you want a perfect appearance and consistent high-tech welded seams, then you're going to have to go with a factory instrument, whether we're talking about timbales or cowbells. Most small makers don't have the capital or even the inclination to buy costly welders. Look at Jopa cowbells, as an extreme example. They're assymetrical and have cobby looking welds, but they've got their own vibe. Those who buy hand-made percussion may well regard consistency and repeatability as a liability! BTW, I showed one of my drums to a welder. He said he'd have used a TIG welder instead of a wire welder. He said that it indeed it got hot so that there was some burn-through. He also said that there is nothing structurally wrong with the drum; the weld is certainly up to the task of holding it together. Matthew used to have an imposing heli-arc welder from the 50's which he says made it easy to weld sheet metal. It conked out a year ago and he is now making do with a smaller, lesser welder. But he's not wringing his hands about it. He's using the resources which he has at hand. I'm not saying that anything goes. But what I am more interested in is the whole picture. Matthew bought hundred-year-old metal fabricating equipment from a tinker in Pennsylvania Dutch country and adapted it to make timbales from scratch! He takes stainless steel sheet metal and forms it into a nearly perfect flanged circle with bearing edges. That takes both ingenuity and hard work. The sound of his instruments is great, and that's important. But it should be said that for some of us, the fact that someone is still willing to apply themselves to hand workmanship gives such instruments a different value. BTW, my timbales, pictured on this thread are an unusual case in that they are replicas of traditional Cuban timbales. Matthew's own design has deeper shells and a different bearing edge construction, and a different-sounding cascara.

[thomas newton]

I've said my piece and I'm not going to nit-pick over this conversation unless you really insist.
Enjoy your drums, hermano. I'd love to have them.

[balongo63]

The Vintage Leedy & Ludwig timbales have the best cascara sound that I have ever heard, but the reality is, that there are other timbales that can sound close to them. On the Smith's timbales they sound great! I don't think that something that is custom made has to look perfect either, I personally like the handmade imperfections, steticlly speaking is more natural to me. I don't believe in the word "copying" since the cubanos are the original creators of the desings of the typical instruments is a good expression, since then, everybody is been copying the same desings and concepts. Let's keep making good music and live in harmony, my percussion brothers! Peace.

[Anonimo]

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[Callao]

Hi To me many of the old copper plated steel timbales like the ludwigs have a bright old sound, this is due to the steel shell and medium thin bearing edge theyre not as loud and durable as todays timbales ...Tito puente lp's and JCR's are stainless steel, Stainless steel is not as bright as steel and the sound is more robust & theyre durable good for cutting through music which In my opinion NO instrument is supposed to cut through music, but make music.

[Anonimo]

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[Ernesto Pediangco]

Thanks, ok at the beginning they were being made of true brass.

Are modern timbales even Lp, true brass timbales????....
The only timbales listed right now with the word brass are:
Matador Brass Timbales 14" and 15" M257b w/out stand

I dont see any gretch to see the example you are talking about.

There are no brass lp matadors, but they have a brass / gold colored finish over a chromed steel shell. The problem w/ all these colored tints like fake gold, is they were off & oxidize and turn ugly ! Real brass will as well, so if you care for your timbales, be sure not to bang them around, use good cases & never put one shell into the cavity of the other. If u look at old pictures of brass timbales, you can see a big scratch line around the shells from this. The perfered storage & trans port method is to stcck the drums w/ a separator ( towel or even card board will do. ) I use a piece of clear packing tape over the area where I play cascara so i do not wear through the lacquer clear coat. Modern brass shells are not all equal in quality or in hard ware design. It takes an educated eye to judge the design faults in any timbale since they are essentialy copies of old style crude shells, some sound good & others do not or may be too fragile for your playing style. How ever, they do have a warmer drum tone & nicer cascara and are in general, less obnoxious sounding than steel shells.

[Ernesto Pediangco]

Hi To me many of the old copper plated steel timbales like the ludwigs have a bright old sound, this is due to the steel shell and medium thin bearing edge theyre not as loud and durable as todays timbales ...Tito puente lp's and JCR's are stainless steel, Stainless steel is not as bright as steel and the sound is more robust & theyre durable good for cutting through music which In my opinion NO instrument is supposed to cut through music, but make music.

HI Callao
The difference between old Ludwig & WFL steel copper plated timbales is one thing not medium thin, bearing edges nor the steel. It is the size those timbales came in sizes 13/14 only,great size for steel even brass timbales . Today they are made in sizes of 14/15 and even larger causing them to sound distorted, that is the problem.You can take a 13/14 by L P or J C R and the sound better than the 14/15 they make now J C R metal used is to thick not the right gauge.

Stainless steel is steel that has been chrome in a special way and shine sanded down to its foundation this is preserved for many years that why they call it stainless steel but it still steel.

Re sizes, the larger 14" & 15 " shells have a sweet tone in the proper tuning range but, drummers tune them to high as if trying to sound like smaller shell sets or like picalo timbales for some stupid reason. The so called stainless steel is a low grade nickle, like some cheap stainless steel kitchen ware / pot & pans etc. Its a good choice for people who do not have the passion to maintain the instrument. Its idiot proof But you must experiment with different head weights instead of just using the factory heads which are very low grade plastic & very thin. This makes $ 500 brand name timbales sound cheap as entry level imports. I never understood that ! ? Try Remo coated ambasadors on steel shells & try Remo Renisance heads on brass shells ? And it helps to know how to correctly tune drums evenly & focus the tone.

[Ernesto Pediangco]

RE : Matthew Smith Timbales : I am curios to inspect & play them. But from viewing his shop video showing the construction methods & materials. I can assess basic design flaws that are easily compensated for. First of all, as long as they are not to large of outside diameter it allows clearance for both calf & plastic heads. His method of a simple folded overlap as a sound edge and simple rolling into a circle w/o a template mold to assure consistant roundness & level top / bottom edges is a concern. This is simular to JCR construction and shells of this type are flexible. Such sharp drum edges cause early tearing of calf heads and are hard to seat with plastic heads. Calf heads require contoured drum sound bearing edges for skin travel and even tensioning across all the tuning points so it should not be binding on sharp edges. Welding the shells, causes heat and even a smooth good full welded seam, will tend to shrink and create a dead spot in an otherwise nice shell. Old Lp's w/ the reinforced wire in the edge & JCR welded shell edges ~ like M. Smith, do shrink. This is why snare drums builders abandoned this crude construction decades ago. Drum companies like Leedy, Rogers, Slingerland etc, Used molds and the metal shells were " Spun " and tools would roll a shell that was already carefully fused /welded or brazzed w/ brass. The sound edges were then formed as the shell spun many times in a slow controlable manner. This folded the drum edge in 45 degree into the shell ( Like as w/ Rodgers ) or made a rounded curved drum edge ( as like Ludwig & Gretsch ). Gon Bops also were spun brass shells and had a 45 degree edge that was fatter than Rogers since Gon Bops were designed for calf primarily. Rogers were coming into the plastic drum set heads generation. Rogers also would spin the sound edges on a level sanding table to make a absolute flat & level sound edge . NO custom Timbale builders are tooled up to this degree of presise control. M.Smith timbales are quite crude but do have a re enforcement bead to add rigidity to the shells, they have a decent designed lug which is superior to Lp's L bracket which dents into shell ( so stupid to keep that design so long ) M. Smith & JCR have better lugs . M.Smith makes a basic backing plate for ther tuning lugs but I did not notice any intentional attemps to tune the shells cascara & head tones from excessive ringing. His backing plates were too short / low mass but very thick. As he played the tims w/ calf heads, I expected a warm calf head tone, but the shells rang like kitchen pots ! I was dissappointed ! His mounting system is like JCR, a heavy duty Leedy design of free floating shells ( not shell mounted ) This restricts the positioning of the tuning lug positions so cascara playing somethimes hits the lugs. A better rim mount should have been used. I would love a set of his timbales and I could tweak many details & return to him to asses the design changes for improvements. Copying old designs is copying design flaws from a much more crude era !

MStimshells.jpg

MStimshells.jpg

[Ernesto Pediangco]

Thanks, ok at the beginning they were being made of true brass.

Are modern timbales even Lp, true brass timbales????....
The only timbales listed right now with the word brass are:
Matador Brass Timbales 14" and 15" M257b w/out stand

I dont see any gretch to see the example you are talking about.

Matador Brass tims are not brass...just having a brass colored tint over a chromed steel shell. These shells used to be considered cheap Asian imports & Lp used them to create a less costly version of the pro LP line. Any tinted gold or brass will wear off & look cheap. Chrome is the best anti corrosion for steel shells. Stainless Steel is in fact a low grade nickle. Not having any musical qualities compared to brass. U never see stainless steel Sax or Trombones do you ? ! ?

[Anonimo]

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[Ernesto Pediangco]

Quote by Ernesto Pediangco "Matador Brass tims are not brass...just having a brass colored tint over a chromed steel shell."

Ernesto you must research in formation before you post it matador timbale comes in solid brass and in these models they are plated models brush nickle ,chrome and polished steel.

well, they must be a recent product ! Matadors historically were chromed or brass tinted steel shells. The finish coats may include these brushed finishes or paint schemes, but the cost of true brass shells are usualy more than even stainless steel shells. To test the shell...use a magnet. Real brass is non ferrous metal and not attractive to magnets. Btw...gold tinted hard wares are not GOLD. just tinted coatings over polished chrome and it wears off and oxidizes into a very ugly finish. Chrome is best, Stainless steel is best for anti oxidant but not for music tonality. Real Brass comes in various thicknesses and various alloys w/ tin etc added. Bronze is brass w/ lots of tin etc to add strength but makes for ringy tones like chromed steel shells. Double check the so called brass shells you have. I doubt real brass is used on mid level matadors unless it is a new product not yet seen in West Coast stores. Real brass has been used & recycled since the bronze age. Most brass articles are in fact an alloy and the color is obvious. Brass is more expensive than steel or stainless steel & is too important to high end industries than to be affordable as for drums. Brass drums require more care if not chromed. Most drummers do not even care for the drums as is evident from the beat up pictures I often see and lack of articles & discussions on the subject. Good Luck...I hope you have real brass drums ! I would love to see Matadors in Real Brass so I can replace the tuning system and mountings for a more classic American tuning system like I did w/ these Afro Brass Shells in this picture below. My next project is to create the metal rollers and interior molds to shape my own shell design, location of ribs and sound edges for brass alloy shells as a happy medium between brass & steel shells w/ a tunable cascara tone. Once these tool machines are built for stronger steel & bronze shells, Brass shells will easily be possible. Enjoy ! This is something I'd have hoped Gon Bops would have done before putting the brand logo on the plain shells and Asian designed Lp copy tuning hard wares. At least I can still hope they will. If not...I hope to build build my own.

[Ernesto Pediangco]

Does any one own M. Smith timbales?

can anyone do a review M. Smith timbales, comparing in contrast with Leedys?

I have only seen Mathews video from Ritmo studios. He build the shells similar to old Lp shells w/ sheet metal that a reinforcing wire is rolled into the top & bottom edges like old galvanized buckets are made. When they are rolled to a cylinder, the sound edge wires fit into each other & is then welded. BUT, this fashion of construction causes the metal to shrink where the welding is and may not be true flat to mate a plastic head. A skin will shrink fit to the drum but still it creates a dead spot and fine tuning is not easily acquired. The tuning hard wares resemble JCR & Lp and use 1/2 " hex head bolts which is a crude overly heavy system in my opinion. The steel backing plates are flat stock metal strips that have mounting holes stamped in. These plates are not contoured to the shell and is not what you would expect in an American drum set construction. These flat surfaces would press a softer brass shell & / or thinner steel shell & cause flattened dents in the shell possibly. The size & weight of these backing plates secure the tuning lugs but also can dampen the over ring in shells for both head sound & cascara tone. The video shows a mounted calf which is usualy a nice tone but these shells sounded very ringy...which may or may not be a result of the recording environment. I would love to examine his shells and possibly have a set made for me w/o mounted hard wares of any kind. I want to add my own tuning system, backing plates & rim mount to the stand. Mathews stands are similar to JCR in that they copy the mountings of Leedy. This limits the positioning of the shells hard wares for a sweet spot to play cascara. But since the Copper plated steel shell are able to stick to magnets, I think a player can dampen the shells cascara tone by adding plastic refridgerator magnets on inside shell to act as over ring mutes. I was successful doing this on my copper plated & Steel plated Ludwig shells. Stainless steel is actualy Nickle and is non ferrous so magnets do not stick to stainless or brass shells. I like a timbale that fits factory standardised plastic heads perfectly...and calf skins will fit as well. A sharp sound edge is never a good idea on skin heads and are also dificult to seat the plastic heads in some cases. Its important to build drum shells to perfect flat level sound edges that have well formed edges that do not choke the head. Most timbales from Lp were very irregular until they went over seas & used a common drum head used on snared drums that were ideal for calf since they were rounded. A sharper thinner snare drum edge like as seen on Rogers timbales are ideal for plastic heads but need attention & time to seat the head properly. Check drum edges for true flat by placing them on a true flat surface and notice if any light shows that indicate the drum is not level flush to the true flat surface. Check the roundness w/ a new plastic head. The head should spin w/o binding on the sound edge. I never read of such details from Mathew Smith so I am unsure what steps were taken to quality check his drums. This is all drum tech details that are industry standard in fine made instruments. Not always seen on Latin Drums.

[Ernesto Pediangco]

Quote by Ernesto Pediangco "Matador Brass tims are not brass...just having a brass colored tint over a chromed steel shell."

Ernesto you must research in formation before you post it matador timbale comes in solid brass and in these models they are plated models brush nickle ,chrome and polished steel.

well, they must be a recent product ! Matadors historically were chromed or brass tinted steel shells. The finish coats may include these brushed finishes or paint schemes, but the cost of true brass shells are usualy more than even stainless steel shells. To test the shell...use a magnet. Real brass is non ferrous metal and not attractive to magnets. Btw...gold tinted hard wares are not GOLD. just tinted coatings over polished chrome and it wears off and oxidizes into a very ugly finish. Chrome is best, Stainless steel is best for anti oxidant but not for music tonality. Real Brass comes in various thicknesses and various alloys w/ tin etc added. Bronze is brass w/ lots of tin etc to add strength but makes for ringy tones like chromed steel shells. Double check the so called brass shells you have. I doubt real brass is used on mid level matadors unless it is a new product not yet seen in West Coast stores. Real brass has been used & recycled since the bronze age. Most brass articles are in fact an alloy and the color is obvious. Brass is more expensive than steel or stainless steel & is too important to high end industries than to be affordable as for drums. Brass drums require more care if not chromed. Most drummers do not even care for the drums as is evident from the beat up pictures I often see and lack of articles & discussions on the subject. Good Luck...I hope you have real brass drums ! I would love to see Matadors in Real Brass so I can replace the tuning system and mountings for a more classic American tuning system like I did w/ these Afro Brass Shells in this picture below. My next project is to create the metal rollers and interior molds to shape my own shell design, location of ribs and sound edges for brass alloy shells as a happy medium between brass & steel shells w/ a tunable cascara tone. Once these tool machines are built for stronger steel & bronze shells, Brass shells will easily be possible. Enjoy ! This is something I'd have hoped Gon Bops would have done before putting the brand logo on the plain shells and Asian designed Lp copy tuning hard wares. At least I can still hope they will. If not...I hope to build build my own.

I just checked the online LP product description to confirm, Matador Brass tinted steel shells. The shells are not Brass ! Many have been misled by this before...and is why I made a point of it. Exterior finishes are just cosmetic coverings over the shell. Usually chromed steel shells are given tints that let the mirror like chrome shine through a tinted exterior lacquer. Some brushed copper or brushed nickel, brushed steel or color coated paint is placed on steel shells to look different but is only a disguise. I say to them " Quitate la mascara " Any color tint is evidence of a cheaper than chrome finish that wears off & soon looks ugly.