How you likeVintage Ludwig Copper60sTimbales?

[waardahl]

Hi,

Mr. Conga asks if anybody has Matthew Smith timbales. I just received mine in January, and am very pleased to have them. Mine are what Matthew describes as replicas of traditional Cuban timbales, with his improvements to the seam and bearing edges. They are the shallower model. They have traditional style crowns, which are designed to accommodate calf heads. Matthew suggested that I play with plastic heads for awhile and then switch to "the real thing". I am relatively new to the instrument, though a veteran drummer, so I don't have a lot of basis for comparison. But, from the recordings I've listened to, I'd say that my timbales have a very dry, traditional, "clacky" cascara sound which I happen to like very much. I would describe the tone of the drums as dry, too, with the coated Evans G1 heads which came with it. I would humbly suggest that differences in heads are more significant than differences in shell materials and construction. Think of the contrast between a coated Ambassador and a smooth Pinstripe! What I enjoy about my timbales, along with fine sound, is the hand workmanship and traditional design. I rather regret not getting calf heads right away. I've been using them on my concert snare drum for years, but didn't want to hold up shipment of my instruments. Also, I wasn't sure how the wrapped crowns would work with rim shots. Perhaps someone can advise me. You can see timbales which look like mine on page 42 of Latin Jazz, by Raul Fernandez. The timbalero is Ubaldo Nieto. I'll try to attach some photos. I've substituted brass wing nuts for the steel ones which came with these drums. I find that they make for smoother, easier tuning. Perhaps they don't look as good as the steel ones, though.

[waardahl]

Here are some more photos. I have a few more, too, if there are of interest to anyone. I should add that Matthew Smith is a gracious gentleman to deal with, and I feel very privileged to have these instruments. He is very analytical about his work, and very historical-minded. His bells are great, too, and I know that he aims to make instruments which sound distinctive. BTW, he normally supplies a Gibraltar stand with his timbs, but I already had an old LP "Everything" rack I wasn't using. So, he supplied me with the timbale mount on the appropriate sized tube, to use with my LP tripod. Finally, thanks to all who contribute to congaplace; I've learned a lot from reading the posts.

[Whopbamboom]

Might not be worth the trouble to you, but you might be able to have a chrome shop plate those brass nuts. Who knows, there may even be do-it-yourself chrome kits for small parts like that. Maybe Eastwood or someone has kits. Just a thought.

[waardahl]

Thanks for the suggestion. I don't know if it would be worth the expense. But after looking at those photos it dawned on me that brass nuts just don't look good on those drums! Aesthetics wins out. I put the old ones back on (see photos)! But the brass ones do tension smoother, which is why the old Ludwig drums have steel tension rods and brass receiver tubes. Maybe it would be worth plating them if I get calf heads and tensioning becomes more of an issue.

Wes

[Whopbamboom]

If you do decide to plate them, then the trick will be to keep the inside threads from being plated along with the outside. They have ways of masking, but I don't know what they use. You'll have to find out.

[ABAKUA]

WOW HOW PEOPLE TAKE CREDIT FOR THING THAT THEY SHOULD NOT. THOSE TIMBALES ARE A COPY OF A SET THAT I OWN .

Typing with your caps lock on is considered rude and as shouting in online conversations.



Anyway, are you saying Matthew should not take credit for hand crafting his own work and producing quality instruments because they look like a set you own made by someone else?

Matthew follows the traditional Cuban form in all his instruments. What is your issue? So what if they look like a set you own from the 40's. It takes nothing away from his work and craftsmanship. His congas can also look like Vergara, Skin on Skin, JCR etc so is he taking credit for someone elses work there as well? Like LP with their Palladium conga, taking credit for Vergara's work?
You got some issues man, Id suggest you keep them off this board.

Mine are what Matthew describes as replicas of traditional Cuban timbales, with his improvements to the seam and bearing edges

Did you miss that part of the post?

[Chupacabra]

Waardahl,
That is a fine set of timbales you have there. I have never taken up the instrument myself as I have more than enough to keep me going with the congas and West African percussion.
I would like to point out one issue that I have a little bit of knowledge in, and that is with metals. I notice that you have chosen to put brass wing nuts on your lugs.
I won't go into it here, but there could be problems in the future with your choice of dissimilar metals. If you look up galvanic corrosion on Wikipedia it will give you a pretty good idea of what this is, if you haven't already heard about it before.
It probably wouldn't be a problem as long as the timbales are kept constantly in a stable temperature and humidity environment. If you live by the ocean or go from hot to cold all the time you will begin to see your brass corrode pretty quickly and they could damage your lugs in the process.
If there are any boaters reading this they will be familiar with what's called a "sacrificial anode" and that is there to prevent the galvanic corrosion from occurring between all the dissimilar metals and other reactive elements on a boat.
Just a little FYI I'd like to put out there...

[waardahl]

Thanks to Chupacabra for the caution. If you look at my previous post closely, you'll see that I actually put the original steel wing nuts back on, though more for aesthetic reasons than for the concern you express. Re: the issue of dissimilar metals: the first Ludwig & Ludwig catalog states that the combination of steel tension rods and brass receiver tubes are "a combination that makes a perfect friction". I don't know if there is a scientific basis for that statement, but there are a lot of old 20's Ludwig & Ludwig snare drums still being used today. They tune up beautifully, and I haven't noted any corrosion. I've had my snare for almost 30 years, and it works great. But, perhaps in the wrong environment there could be problems? Thanks again.

Re: the post from Cuquito717 (from whom I think I bought the cha-cha bell in my photos) I find that Abakua's response is right on the money.

[Whopbamboom]

Not EVERY combination of metals is prone to the problem. You'll have to check to see if brass on chrome/steel or whatever has a potential for the problem. But I think if you coat the threads with a good anti-sieze compound, it should be fine.

[waardahl]

Hi,
Sorry to have set loose the focus on wing nuts! Someone asked if anybody owned Matthew Smith timbales, and nobody else had responded. I wanted to give Matthew some recognition here. I mean here is a guy who not only makes truly great congas and bongos in the traditional style, but can also great bells and timbales. And he's not buying the shells from somebody; he's riveting and welding them up himself! I don't know if he has made a lot of these instruments, or if they are relatively rare. He also makes a deeper set with more conventional crowns. So, I just wanted to show these off a bit, you know? I also want to contribute something to the discussion of shell materials, etc. The cascara sound of these timbales is, I think, unusually dry. I think that this has to do with how the shells are made as well as what they are made of. Matthew has said that he will send me some further information on the construction of these timbs, and I will pass it along when I receive it. I shouldn't have earlier said that the drums sound dry overall. I took them upstairs into a larger room to take the photos, and the hembra sounds very resonant in that room w/o carpet etc. Finally, I'll repeat what I said earlier. I regret not getting calf heads right away. Based on my experience with calf heads on snare drums, that would make more of a difference to the tone of your timbales than anything else. Also, the stick response with calf is superior. But, I'd still like to know how those calf-wrapped crowns work with rimshots. Does it mute them? And does the calf wear out at the crowns because of the rim shots??

Wes

[thomas newton]

...welding them up himself!

Even after acknowledging that welding sheet metal is a challenge, that seam is not pretty imo.

[Mr. Conga]

Yes, i asked if anyone here had a pair of Mathew Smith timbales ,waardahl. Thank you for posting those great pictures.
As we know he makes great congas, and bongos..

i have some timbales i am playing, but i am considering getting another pair that will sound a little better, such as the old recordings when salsa was coming up, such as the sound Nicky Marrero had on his timbales, which were Leedy at the beginning , before he became sponsered by Lp.

[waardahl]

Mr. Conga, You're welcome; Im glad you had time to check them out and respond. All I can say is that I'm very happy with them, and I think that you should at least consider them. The design, craftsmanship, and sound (especially with calf heads) are very traditional. Re: thomas newton's reaction to the seams, all I can say is that maybe they're not pretty and maybe they are! First, consider that they don't show, since they are on the same side as the hangers. Second, they may be an example of a traditional method of construction being valued over a flawless appearance. Third, please note the these timbs are not made with a simple butt joint, but rather with a specially shaped lap joint. I will find out more about the construction and post it. My suspicion is that there is a very good reason why Matthew Smith does everything that he does. I certainly doubt that he's lacking in ability.

[Whopbamboom]

Anyone consider the possiblity that an ugly weld MIGHT contribute to a drier sound? In the automotive world, a steel crankshaft that is not cracked will ring like a bell when tapped with a wrench. Yet a steel crankshaft that has a hairline crack will just go "dank" when struck. Slight imperfections break up the harmonics of the ringing. Perfect material allows the ringing to sound out nice and clear. Perhaps this might correlate to timbales, just a thought.

[waardahl]

Does a beautiful timbale shell construction require a butt joint and a hairline factory weld? I don't think so! These timbales are beautifully constructed of satin-finished stainless, with very stout stainless brackets, bolts, and crowns. The center section of the welded seam is like a tab which is overlapped, so that the inside edge of the sheet metal is on the opposite side of rivets in relation to the outside of the shell. It is this construction, together with the gauge of the steel, which accounts for the dry cascara tone of these timbs--I think. Whopbamboom provides a useful illustration except that there are more factors at work than just the weld--which, btw, I'm reluctant to call "ugly", given the overall skill level evident in the Matthew's metal work. I had opportunity to play a set of LP Matadors recently, and it was a revelation. They look perfect, perfectly shiny and smooth, with a perfect seam; but you could get the same cascara tone by striking the bass of a cymbal or drum stand! They go "plink" instead of "clack". I've also played LP Tito Puente timbs, and they sound much better than the Matadors, I presume because of the thinner gauge of the metal. Still, I prefer mine. I've also played a pair of old Ludwigs with cast crowns and they sounded very good. Again, I'm very happy with mine. One day I'll have calf heads mounted on them and I'll be happier still.