Contracampana patterns?

[Mike]

As a budding timbalero (well, at the age of 40 I have found joy in playing timbales recently after almost 20 years of focusing on congas), I would like to raise a question:

Who can tell me which contracampana patterns can be played in 2:3 clave?
So far I have come across this one:
0=cowbell
x = rest
x00x|x000|x000|x000
In general, is it correct that you play it when the bongocero turns to his bongo bell?

Another thing I´d like to know which contracampana patterns you combine with which other pattern(s) on your timbal set, e.g. clave on wood or jam block etc).
Do you abandon cáscara for contracampana?

Quite a bunch of questions, but I hope I can get some answers.
Thanx
Mike



Edited By Mike on 1199304102

[davidpenalosa]

Mike,
The contra-compana pattern I’m familiar with goes like this (2-3):

0x0x0000x0000xx00
0 = cowbell
x = rest

>>Who can tell me which contracampana patterns can be played in 2-3 clave?<<

Within the context of popular (band) music, you can play ANY rhythmic pattern in a 3-2 or 2-3 sequence ("direction"). It’s determined by the chord progression.

>>In general, is it correct that you play it when the bongocero turns to his bongo bell?<<

Yes

>>Another thing I´d like to know which contracampana patterns you combine with which other pattern(s) on your timbal set, e.g. clave on wood or jam block etc). Do you abandon cáscara for contracampana?<<

Timba timbale/kit plays play clave on the jamblock quite a bit. When you play your bell pattern on the cymbal, you have more latitude to vary; you can vary accents like a jazz ride cymbal. It depends upon the context.

Nowadays, it’s almost a matter of "anything goes". Many bands use bongo or timbale, but not both. There’s also slightly different aesthetics expressed by Cuban bands, as opposed to non-Cuban salsa bands. The first band to combine conga, bongo and timbale was Machito and his Afro-Cubans in the 40’s. Since then, there have been many different variations on this model. It really depends upon the style you are playing. Is it big band mambo ala Machito, NY salsa or Cuban timba you are playing? Whatever the genre, I recommend that you listen intently to a favorite group, favorite players. You will begin to understand what patterns that player uses and in what contexts. Then, focus on a different band; you will most likely hear many consistencies, but also some subtle differences.

Perhaps you could share what recordings you are listening to? That might inspire more forum members to join in with their feedback.

By the way, I recommend that you type 3-2 and 2-3 with the dash, instead of with a colon like you did ("2:3"). 2:3 is a ratio: two over three. Rhythmic ratios are the foundation of this music, but you don’t want to confuse them with clave sequence, which is something else entirely.
-David

[Mike]

Thanks for the reply, David.

When you play your bell pattern on the cymbal, you have more latitude to vary; you can vary accents like a jazz ride cymbal. It depends upon the context.

That is true, I often play bell patterns on a cymbal and it is surely fun...
Managing to play the 2-3 clave with the contra-campana pattern is hard enough to do, but it surely works fine.

As to your question about particular tunes: I´ll post some track titles tomorrow.

Mike

[Mike]

Hi David,
Now I´m back.
First of all I´d like to say that I like a decent rhythm section of bongó, congas and timbales plus maracas, guiro, possibly clave over many modern setups which lead unemployed bongoceros, e.g. That being said, nothing is really wrong with incorporating the drumset though. Depends on the style as you say.
Second, the percussion group I teach feels the need to add some "cowbell heat" when others are taking solos in various situations.

Anyway, the songs and styles I like to listen to are as follows (not really in chronological order; just a selection):
from big band mambo
- Machito
- Tito Puente

to Latin Jazz
à la Cal Tjader
over to a selection of more "modern" or style-mixing groups between son, salsa, jazz, e.g.:

- Los Van Van, e.g. "Se Muere La Tia" (I think the pattern I posted fits here)

- Afro-Cuban All Stars, e.g. "A Toda Cuba Le Gusta" (In this son, the pattern you mention appears as well as
in the following song which is totally different in style of course

- José Alberto, "Me Déjo Picao"

- Afro-Cuban Jazz Project, "Campina" (I wonder if this descarga has got or even needs a contracampana at all)

- Pucho & his Latin Soul Brothers, "Mambo with me" (here something like a jazzy contracampana is played on a cymbal)

Again, this is just a tiny selection of songs with timbales-oriented aspects.
My adored and most revered timbaleros next to Tito Puente:
Manny Oquendo, Willie Bobo, Changuito, Amadito Valdez

Back to the topic of my post:
What it boils down to is that there are two basic patterns for contracampana if I´m right: The one I already mentioned:

x00xx000x000x000 which appears to be be called the "Changuito contracampana" pattern

and the one you posted, David :

0x0x0000x0000x00

(BTW there seemed to be a rest too much in your original post)

The point is, does anyone play variations of these and what are they like? That would be interesting to know!

P.S.: I´m learning a lot from Victor Rendón´s book "The Art of Timbales Vol. 1" at the moment. Perhaps he will have a chapter on contracampana in Vol. 2, I wonder... :;):



Edited By Mike on 1199343444

[Mike]

I have to correct myself, Victor Rendon has got the "standard" son/mambo contracampana pattern in his book of course.

0x0x0000x0000x00

Sorry for being sloppy.
The only thing I wonder how much variation of this pattern there is /is "allowed) i.e. usual.

[davidpenalosa]

Hi Mike,
The sources you listed tend to be straight-ahead (palante). There’s not a lot of variation involved. If you are presenting these parts to your class, I wouldn’t encourage variation. That’s not tipico. Once they get the execution of the attacks correct, the next step is articulating the correct accents. That makes the music swing. It takes some time because the accents tend to be on offbeats, not the easiest pulses to emphasize.

Manny Oquendo and other bongo bell players sometimes vary that part. Check out Oquendo bongo bell variations. The timbale bell parts tend to be played straight (unless played on a ride cymbal).

Changuito names the inventor if the contra-campana part in his "History of the Tumbadoras" VHS tape, but I can’t recall who it is now. I think you identified this part with Changuito earlier because he was the one who first played the bongo bell and contra-campana parts simultaneously on the timbales.

If you are playing in the songo style, there’s more of a tendency to vary the timbale part. Songo uses different parts though, built upon rumba cascara instead of the mambo bell parts.
-David

[Mike]

Thanks for reply, David.
You´re right, for the pupils it´s better to learn bell patterns thoroughly, to keep time, learn accents and different tempos.
If it is tipico to stick to the contracampana pattern as you say then timbales seems to be a timekeeper and rather other instruments such as conga could vary/solo in those parts.

BTW songo is all the rage among my pupils, they like it the fast way very much. I have to slow them down sometimes, otherwise technique suffers (especially on congas which is most challenging for them)

Many greetings
Michael

[davidpenalosa]

If it is tipico to stick to the contracampana pattern as you say then timbales seems to be a timekeeper and rather other instruments such as conga could vary/solo in those parts.

I think of the timbale, bongo and conga combination as roughly based on the folkloric model: bell (timbale), gourd (guiro or maracas), basic supportive drum part playing ponche and bombo (conga tumbao) and lead drum (bongo with its improvised phrases that vary the martillo). I don't think of the bongo as "soloing" in that mode though; it's more like a lead drum, where the licks maintain a particular motif that's locked into a specific relationship with clave. At least, that's how my favorite bongoceros play.

It must be great to see your students so inspired!
-David

[Raymond]

Got very technical here but let me give you my five cents here....

The songs you mentioned are very "pa'lante" or straight songs that you do a "faster" pattern for the timbale cowbell skipping some beats of the traditional cowbell hits. (Specially, Me dejo Picao from Canario. However, "A Toda Cuba le Gusta" and notice that the arrangement allows you to play more out of the traditional timbale cowbell beats because is a slower songs...I think...I am used to Willie Rosario's version).

What variations of patterns or beats in the timbale bell or cymbal or even the jam or clave block will depend in the arrangment. What I mean is the "feel" that is sometimes related to the speed of the song. Also, if you place cymbal hits in the wrong part of the arrangement it will give a different feel...You have to be careful there....

The clave or jam block, my experience is that you play it straight up in clave or variate into rumba clave but playing some of the notes of the clave for the sake of variation you have to be careful because it could cross people out of clave....You do that normally in "mambo jazz" feels in the arrangement that normally ocurr in monas or mambo parts or any "ad lib" parts but not in the main parts which are the intros or the chorus....). I am aware that in latin jazz is total different thing and anything goes...Have to admit that playing latin jazz is not easy because of that...(I recently participated in a jam in Paoli Mejias and his group and the pianist keep on messing with the clave feel, plus the arrangment had the clave in the wrong place on purpose and it was a challange to keep up with.....Is hard).

Swingy songs or slower pace songs will allow you to play more or variate to provide a different swing (or parts of the arrangement that are like that allow you to do so). (Check Irimo from Oscar DLeon's Live Album in the Copa and notice the timbale bell patterns...)

The challenge that I've seen out there playing bells is when you have an arrangement with a 3/2 feel....They are hard for timbale players and bongo bell players...because you have to be on top all the time.... Try to teach that to your students...I think is a good topic and I've seen lot of people having trouble...

In summary, after all the mess I've explained before, is that latin genres are very structure and the most important thing is to keep on clave and as long as your beat is in clave you will not have a problem...contracampana or not, the clave feel is what should be kept...

Saludos!

[Mike]

Thanks, Raymond, I appreciate your repply very much. The only thing I did not quite understand was:

The challenge that I've seen out there playing bells is when you have an arrangement with a 3/2 feel....They are hard for timbale players and bongo bell players...because you have to be on top all the time....

???
Do you mean that it is difficult because people/pupils are more familiar with 2-3 clave? What do you mean by "on top of it"?

Mike

[Raymond]

Hard for me to explain but arrangements that are 3/2 or that the cowbells start in a 3/2 bar tend to get difficult in the percussion. Specially, if you have silences or breaks and then you have to start in the 3/2 bar.

Saludos!

[zaragenca]

Well to the brothers, first to say that originally when the Guaracha/ part was played in Cuba,(Guaracha is part of what is called now Salsa),the timbaleros would play Son/bell pattern and the bongocero would fire up the solos, it was during the Cha Cha Cha/Mambo Era, when the pattern which were use in the Mambo,(in the Cymbals), where later transferred to the timbales/bells…There are several ways to ride the Guaracha/Part…1) both hand/ cascara, (which few timbaleros do)…2) one hand/cascara… and 3) timbales bell patterns ,(which at one point were severals), depending on the timbalero en Cuba,(and I said in Cuba because all the timbaleros coming up in NY.), Tito Puente.Manny Oquendo,Marrero,Ubaldo Nieto,etc.etc.etc. were fusilating the cubans timbaleros and many of them went to Cuba several times. At one point in Cuba the bongoceros were out of the Orquestras but out side of Cuba they were still in use and switching to play hand/bell during the Guaracha/Part of the songs and the timbaleros would play the second bell patterns….The using of the clave for the songs,(2/3 or 3/2, would depend on the ‘percutive pattern’, which the conga player is using,(which could be Guaracha,or Guaguanco).Dr. Zaragemca