Rudiments for timbales - Rudiments practice,Application in fills

[Simon B]

Thanks for replying, Raymond.

So by the sounds of it, to get a momma-daddy you are letting the stick just drop and do its own two hits (of course making sure that you time it nicely), rather than making the stick clip twice through your own intervention/wrist work? What you describe is I think what I am doing on timbales. When I do doubles my palms tend to be almost totally flat, but when I am doing rim shots and single strokes my palms are about 45 degrees upright (the 'American grip'). Is this the same for you?

Simon

[Raymond]

I am the other way around. When I do mommy-daddys my hands are about a 45 degree angle like you say and that is what is creating the sound I do not like. Seen much of the timbaleros, and the one with great abanicos, and actually their hands are in a angle much but much less than than the 45 degrees and have control in the bounce getting a nice sound to it. That is what I am trying to work to get the my abanico the rudimental way. Working hard on it by the way and getting close to it.

I get the sound I like when I do the "strange thing" I do. Technically it is a roll of the sticks, ala "old timbaleros", and rolls are not bad if you get what you are supposed to do.

My "strange thing" is something I have worked for a lot of years since I was a kid and have getting better at it. My recommendation is to try to get it the rudimental way. (Like I am trying).

Saludos!

[Simon B]

The rudimental way is to use the fingers to bring the sticks up and down, on double (or single) strokes, isn't it, so that the wrists don't really move? Am I right in saying that just as with doubles, when you do your single strokes, your hands are roughly 45 degrees and the movement is from the fingers more than anything else?

Simon

[Raymond]

I am not a trained guy but I've been taught, by a famous Puerto Rico timbalero, to use a wrist approach to it. Hence, to use the wrist. Moving your whole hands is another approach but my "teacher" discourages.

The way I was taught is to have the "right grip" (closed hand holding the sticks the right way) use the wrist, controll the bounce and "voila"!

Endel Dueno, a great timbalero, is famous for doing abanicos in single strokes and his grip is the sort of holding his thumbs up and having the sticks just a couple of inches off the rim. He is the only one I've seen doing this...

Seen lots of styles, and ways, I think here is the sound. You want to get that "prrrrrrrr" of the abanico clean and sharp...

Saludos!

[ralph]

Yes, Guillermo Barretto, so clean, for his time, so exact. This is a good guy to listen too...also speaking of technique you may want to try and pick up a video that Manny Oquendo did a while back called Manny Oquendo on Timbles, and minor other percussion. While it doesn't go much into technical terms, Manny is the one to watch. If you want to play timbales in the tipico way, watch Manny, and even at his age he is still playing, and playing strong. Manny plays timbal like timbaleros in the Danzon and Charanga bands used to play. Which if you think about it this is where the timbales were introduced and where they play the most important part.
He plays like timbaleros such as Orestes Varona (Orquesta Aragaon) Unialpo Diaz (Arcano), and Ubaldo Nieto (Machito). I don't know if this is added anything to the current discussion but you always gotta go to the source and Manny is the foremost "living" figure in this style of playing..

[zaragemca]

For anybody trying to make reference into the Timbales,I did the article,(Zaragemca's bongos,congas,timbales"..).The Timbalero which was observed by mosly all other Timbaleros in NY,in the 30'and 40's,was the cuban Jose Montesinos with his group,'The Happy Boys',also was teaching,(including Tito Puente),at that time.Of the Timbaleros which set up the standart in Cuba,'Chori',which have a show in the 30's and 40's,later Barreto,(when playing with Dr. Obdulio Morales),becouse Barreto was the first to master the 6/8 time signature of the Yoruba's patterns,which was incorporated in to Afrocuban music,'Batamu','Batarumba','Batanga',etc.The other one setting standart in the 50's was Elio Reve,(Orquestra Reve), with his form of playing the Changui...The Mastering of timbal playing or afro-cuban percussion,goes with the domination of syncopation,contra-syncopation, Juxtaposition of time signatures,and the moving of the parameters around the time signature, something that even some cubans percussionists sometimes didn't really dominate, but they were close enough to be good..This is my best cookies...Dr.Zaragemca



Edited By zaragemca on 1113869437

[Simon B]

That does sound a good video, Ralph. I wonder whether it's still available? Just how old is it?

Simon

[ralph]

Here's a review:
Manny Oquendo
On Timbales, Bongoes, Maracas & Guiro (TL-15359.30) / Alchemy

Manny Oquendo started playing timbales professionally in New York City in the 1940s. He has over 1,000 records and dozens of hits to his credit. He is often remembered for his years with Eddie Palmieri's Conjunto la Perfecta in the 1960s. Today Oquendo is best known as the leader of Libre.

The foundation of modern salsa was laid down in the late 30s and early 40s. This era is revered by many as a classic period. I've always felt that Manny Oquendo was the keeper of the flame of the great advances in popular Cuban music that occurred during that time. Sure, Oquendo's career spans five decades, but the material demonstrated here is for the most part from pre-revolutionary Cuban. Study this video before you move onto Changuito's or Goines and Ameen's tapes. This is the important foundation from which all the modern hip styles have evolved.

Like other Alchemy instructional videos, Manny Oquendo On Timbales has a certain informal quality to it. However, the absence of slickness does not really impair the presentation. Oquendo shows us patterns, and demonstrates his straight-ahead approach to playing. His bare-bones uses of drum language in solos are classic examples of phrasing. You must understand the fundamentals of drum language before you start incorporating flashy roles. Otherwise, your solos will be all filler with no substance.

Besides the timbales, Manny Oquendo demonstrates bongos, bongo bell, maracas and guiro. There are a few interview segments where Oquendo's partner in Libre, bassist Andy Gonzalez, asks him some questions about his career. In one of these segments Oquendo claims credit for creating the rhythm Mozambique. Pello el Afrokan actually created the Mozambique in Cuba in the early 1960s, but what Oquendo plays, while similar in feel, is an entirely different rhythm. Interestingly enough, on Changuito's video there's a variation on the conga rhythm played on toms that's very close to what Oquendo is playing as Mozambique. The Mozambique that Oquendo plays was first used by Eddie Palmieri's group and is commonly called "New York Mozambique" to distinguish it from Pello el Afrokan's rhythm.

In addition to Manny Oquendo demonstrating the various instruments and patterns, we get a chance to watch the entire rhythm section from Libre perform. Joining Oquendo are Andy Gonzalez (bass), Willie Rodriguez (piano), Robert Correro (congas) and Wayne Gorbea (clave).

You may want to call or email http://www.descarga.com to see if they have any in inventory...it is possible. It would be good to have if not, just look for records on which Manny plays that give you the feeling and the idea of what he's doing as well.



Edited By ralph on 1113914046

[Raymond]

One thing that I have not been able to found is a good timbalero DVD or video. I've been trying to get my friend and teacher Tito de Gracia to do one. Lots of books and the "rudimental approach" to abanicos, I've seen in Victor Rendon's book been credited by Humberto (forgot his name, I think Machito's timbalero) was one of the first to start using a "rudimental" approach to the abanico and the timbale playing. Obviously, Tito Puente had it but despite his saying in some of his books, his abanico appear to be more of a "roll" or a "forced" mommy-daddy (I know some of you have seen some people doing them, they actually sound like a roll). It was not a "clean" abanico...

Abanicos have been popularized by some of the new timbaleros. The new arrangements in "salsa" have allowed for them plus their use have incremented. Now, you don't have a silence that a timbalero does not covered by an abanico. Now you must have one....Yes, the 70s timbaleros like Endel Dueno, single roll, and Nicky Marrero and others had them but guys like Marc Quinones, Chino Nunez and Tito de Gracia have made them now a must by a good timbaleros. These guys have the rudimental approach. I've seen them doing them. If you want to get a good abanico, those three guys are to be listened to....

Someone mentioned, Manny Oquendo, Manny, is perhaps the best all around percussionist from the old school...Anything from him should be good. Bongo or timbale. He is credited, while been a timbalero with Eddie Palmieri's La Perfecta in the 50/60s, of the mozambique beats used today.. (Yep, they say Pello el Afrokan but is Manny's beat used the most)...

Interesting subject.....

Saludos!



Edited By Raymond on 1113935541

[zaragemca]

I have nothing against any musician but as a matter of right,if you used the name of something created by somebody else it should be point it out like that,(even if making a variation of it),not giving the impression that you are the creator.I know 'Pello el Afrocan' personally, and also his lead congero'Nico'.He didn't come to the U.S. but he was known all over Europe and Africa.( 'Pello' was from the Chano Pozo conga-style)...The reason I point out the subject in relation to 'Mastering the Timbales' is becouse a lot of percussionist think that doing a fast roll in Timbales,is something special,any drummer could do that,that's the begining of sticks-control,then the domination of syncopation and contra-syncopation,then the juxtaposition of time signature,(which is when the crack started falling down,and a few had ever known what is 'moving the parameters' around the time signature.(including some cubans), and I always have been a drummer,(since late 60's),so when somebody comes with the drum-set stuff to play the timbales I could see it a mile away. Dr Zaragemca.



Edited By zaragemca on 1113940649

[Raymond]

Gerry,

Let me correct or rephrase my point. I've read, in various books, about Manny's version of the mozambique been the one "currently been used" in timbales. I cannot say is Manny's claiming it. (Neither have I verify that is Manny's saying that makes the book's writers state that).

Nevertheless, Pello, El Afrokan is credited everywhere I've read about the "creator or developer" of the original mozambique. So he got his credit...

Agree with you that despite any training you might have in a percussion instrument does not necessary gives you the proficiency to play another. Case in point, your example: been a good trap drummer does not translate been a good timbalero. The reality is that instruments to be played in clave are not easy to play by everybody. It will be easier to pick up timbales by a guy that just know conga, despite any technique lacking for "snare drumming", than a trap drummer because of his knowledge of the "basics to play" in clave. However, I give that "trap drummer" an advantage is picking up some stuff..but that clave and sense of "swing" needed to play afro-cuban rhythms is not easy to pick up by everybody. It is complicated to explain but you know what I mean...Your point there is well taken....

Saludos!



Edited By Raymond on 1113942556

[zaragemca]

Greeting brother Raymond,it was not Manny,but somebody else to which I observed in an article,giving the credit for this,I didn't make a big deal out of it when I observed it,but it just came in to this post..The reason why the drummers find difficult to pick up the Timbales's paremeters,(this with my own experience since some of my students,or individuals which I had helped to understand this paremeters are drummers)...1.- Not knowing the relationship between the clave and the 4/4 time signature...2.-The fact that the congas accentuation is usually place in in differents parameters than the drum-set...3.- The Bass-Riff in a cuban music could be place in a parameter difficult to undertand for the people which don't dominate the clave.As the jazz-musicians used to said in the 30's and 40's when trying to get in to cuban music,'they are fusilated from the top,from the right,from the left and cann't find the one-count'.There is also an explanation of the changes which took place in the jazz-drumming for keeping the time, since the 30's up to the Bep-Bop and later Latin-Jazz and Afro-Jazz,but that's for drummers. Dr. Zaragemca



Edited By zaragemca on 1114105896

[JohnnyConga]

Hi Guys....Manny's approach to playing timbale is from of course the "original" Ol Skool. He is the "root" of timbal playing, as well as bongo. I took bongos lessons from Manny back in 1968 at the Johnny Colon School of Music en el Barrio. Then I took lessons on timbales, from "UBA" Ubaldo Nieto, Machito's timbalero. Both from that Ol skool. But Uba did apply rudiments to timbale playing, cause he gave me rudimentary exercises,but I didn't like them, I just wanted to play!. As "the" drummer for Machito's band, he was also an Xcellant reader, and that was the first time I freaked out was when I saw a timbale perc. chart. But it helped and scared me, to me it was all math, and I hated math. But I got over it. Manny's "mozambique" pattern was developed because Eddie wanted a very busy and noisy part for the timbale and Manny knowing that Pello El Afrokan was the "creator" of the Mozambique rhythm, saw that he used like 5 percussionists in his band so they had to play busy and loud, just listen to the album Molasses with Eddie Palmieri and tell me if that isn't loud and kick ass bell playing by Manny and drumming by Tommy Lopez. Manny's "drive and "style" alone is what "makes" that rhythm section.......it's all about "styles"...."JC" Johnny Conga.... :;):

[ralph]

On a side note, if i didn't mention before it is safe to say that Manny is the creator of the NY style Mozambique...also to preface Johnny, it is true that La Perfecta was actually a smaller conjunto , 2 bones (Barry Rogers, Jose Rodriguez), conga (Tommy Lopez), flute (Jorge Castro), vocals (Ismael Quintana), bass (Dave Perez), and piano (Eddie Palmieri), so yes with a small unit Manny's use of mozambique would definitly fit in so perfectly with the format they were using. I encourage anyone to try and catch "Manny Oquendo y Libre", before Manny is no longer with us, it will be a treat, especially for aspiring timbaleros, or aficionados. Remember Manny is not all flash or entertainment he is just rock solid funky timbal player, the way he tunes the drums, everything, when you listen to him you are listening to timbal playing at its best.
On another side note: Johnny it must have been a great experience (im sure you can appreciate more now), playing and learning from such icon such as Manny and Ubaldo. Feather in your cap...



Edited By ralph on 1114106019

[zaragemca]

Greeting brother JC,ok I got a question in NY,there are differents generation of timbaleros,there is one in the 30's,then the next one in the mid 50's, and another one in the 60's and 70's which one, each one,(Manny and Ubaldo) belong to.Dr.Zaragemca



Edited By zaragemca on 1114116925