Giraldo Rodriguez-Afro Tambores Bata - by Tomas Altmann

[zaragenca]

Well David in that case, GET THE PICTURE HERE,(like everybody have done it),and also get his birthdate,(I haven't been able to locate his birthdate notwhere, neither any recording of him with anybody in Habana,and I know he was a congero in Cuba in relation to the article Pablo Roche never have Julio Collazo as 'disipulo',(a lot of people could had seen Pablo Roche playing Bata,...I have seen a lot of them too), that doesn' mean that they are 'teachers'.,and yes Juliot did beccome an Olu/Bata,but as I said before when they came with ketherine Dunham neither one was Olu/Bata yet,it was after that.Dr. Zaragemca



Edited By zaragenca on 1159286096

[davidpenalosa]

Well David in that case, GET THE PICTURE HERE,(like everybody have done it),and also get his birthdate..

Sir! Yes sir!
Actually, I can't do that because I don't have a scanner. Perhaps somebody in this forum (Johnny Conga?) has a copy of the "Salsa Guidebook" and can scan and post this picture of the young Francisco w/ Trinidad and Raul Diaz on batá for the benifit of Mr. Zaragemca. If not, I'll see what I can do.

This website says Francisco was born in 1925:

http://bibliotecacubana.re-invent.net/bcub....gory=23

This website
http://links.jstor.org/sici?si....O%3B2-C

confirms the two points you challenged:

"…Aguabella himself began playing the Lucumí batá and iyésa drums before he had reached his teenage years."

"In the 1940’s Aguabella moved to the barrio Jesús María in Havana.."

-David

[tamboricua]

Actually, I can't do that because I don't have a scanner. Perhaps somebody in this forum (Johnny Conga?) has a copy of the "Salsa Guidebook" and can scan and post this picture of the young Francisco w/ Trinidad and Raul Diaz on batá for the benifit of Mr. Zaragemca. If not, I'll see what I can do.

Gentlemans,

Here you go!!!

Hope this helps!

Saludos,

Jorge Ginorio

Attachment: http://mycongaplace.com/forum/eng/uploa ... _group.jpg

[davidpenalosa]

thank you!

[zaragenca]

Thanks for the picture,it show the Sans Souci Casino, which is in the late 40's to the early 50's,..Francisco is playing (Okon),which corroborate what I said that they weren't Olu/Bata yet,when Katherine Dunham recruited them...Also by the 1950's,(as it is in the Casino picture),he was already 20's something,(not 17 years old),..Mercedita Valdez,(which I know personally becouse she became an Obalosha like my mother)), was in her 20's also....The reason that there is no much information about him is that he moved in the 1940's to Habana,and by the early 1950's is already out of Cuba there was not enough time to create a wide recognition in the Habana....In the habana even regular musicians have to wait years 'putching' the pavement before having recognition.Dr. Zaragemca



Edited By zaragenca on 1159376842

[davidpenalosa]

Thanks for your usual clarity Facundo.
-David



Edited By davidpenalosa on 1159310429

[Facundo]

.Also I want to take this post to oint out something which I missed in the other topic...never neither during the Civil War of Nigeria in the 1860's or before there were a large groups of Yorubas/people taken to Cuba,(we have the date of the Cabildos,the name of the Cabildos,etc),..the womans and the first Babalawo which became the initial Oriates in Cuba and took that knowledge from Habana to Matanzas arrived to Cuba in the 1830's..(and there are only a handful of them,...everybody else in Cuba got into the Yoruba/Religion through initiation,(and we have the whole historical sequences of initiations,so I don't know from where they are going to get they numbers.Dr. Zaragemca

Well brother Thomas I never tryed to tread you as a child,but you did get youself into this situation.becouse we are discussing a chronologic subject in relation to Obaluaye and you are coming with a 'Pataki', in relation to him,and you forced me to clear that...In relation to evidence,there have been a lot of evidences with the Araras in relation to Obaluaye living there with them,but if that isn't enough for you, (I have witnessed,and experienced in Cuba ceremonies where Obaluaye,or Babalu Aye,(as the preference could be),had mounted in the person of an Iyalosha and talked to everybody presented there,(and these is not the only time that this Orichas have presented himself in Cuba)...Back to Thomas I konw about several movies which have Aguabella featured on it,(but these movies weren't made in the 1950's when Aguabella was playing with Katherine, these movies were made after the Bata drum came to the U.S.A.,..but neither Aguabella,or Collazo were Olu/Batas when they came with Katherine,both of them returned to Cuba and continued the study after that.Dr. Zaragemca

Brothers,

Sorry for the late response but I've been away from my PC. This thread has made a drastic turn from the original topic. Glad to see this son/mombo business has been moved. However, let me response to the comments about bata. Arsenio said:

" In the black neighborhoods afrocuban music was never absent, I am well informed on Commercial Rumba before the Revolution in the nightclubs, cabarets etc., but that was no Yoruba music! "

Sorry Arsenio - That is not the case. As previously noted there was a lot of Yoruba music being played openly in the neighborhoods of Cuba as well as stuff that had been invented for stage shows. The dance instructor, who ran the studio that I got my introduction to Afro Cuban drumming in back in the early sixties, had traveled to Cuba in the early fifties with Walter Nicks. He talked about Trinidad Torregosa and mentioned being taken to various bembes. This same instructor had studied at the Dunham school in New York. He also talked often about being in the same dance class with Earth Kit and Marlln Brando who were unknown as actors then. Brando not only danced but loved congas and was a fairly accomplished drummer!

Speaking of movies with Yoruba content: pre - revolution.
"Appointment in Havana", a black and white movie starring, John Cassavettes (sp) had several scenes with a young Celia Cruz singing to Obatala and Agayu with bata drummers.
"Yambao" a color film which was dubbed in english and renamed "Young and Evil" is the best example of my point. The list of noted Afro Cuba musical artist seemed endless. Again a young Celia Cruz, Mercedita Valdez, Xiomara Alfaro and Mongo Samtamaria's cousin, Luis Santamaria were featured singers. When this film played in the english movie houses it was shown in the X rated theaters because of a few semi-nude scenes. Times have really changed because far more explicit is aired on network tv today. The movie was set in slavery times and between all the mellow dramatic foolishness there was a lot of good drumming and singing. I have no idea who all of the drummers were but the dance teacher did recognize Trinidad in the film. Oh! I should also mention that a 17 year old Julito Collazo played quataca in one of the scenes.

Doc Z - I disagree with some of your remarks as well. Quite the contrary, the were a lot of Yorubas taken to Cuba before and during the Civil war during the 1860's. The slavers capitalized on the wars and bought the captives from both sides. The Cabildo systems is a subject unto its' self which I will pass for now. Babalawos were not the first Oriates in Cuba. Ifa actually came to Cuba much later than the other Orisha houses. The first Oriates were acutally women. Latuan being the most noted. Her daughter still functioned as an Oriate as a very old woman into the early 50's. Also, there were functioning Oriate's in both Havana and Mantanzas. The initiations were different between the two locations. Mantanzas initiations were not recognized in Havana at one time. There are still differences in styles between the two locations. The bata toques, presentation of iyawos to Anya are some differences that still remain. However, they now recognize each other's initiations.

On the issue of Obaluaye and Thomas quoting pataki:
I am aware of the oral ledgons in Arara lore about him but they are essentially apataki as well. So you are using the same source to justify your position! We need to be clear on what apataki are. They are stories used in divination to illustrate circumstances in human condition. Most often they are allegorical and should be taken literally. The fact that Obaluaye manifests in possession is not proof a physical incarnation as a human.

The history of when sacred bata came to the US has nothing to do with anything germane to this discussion. Both Aguabella and Collazo were brought from an "active" Afro Cuban culture in Cuba before the revolution to play for her dance company. I knew Julito well before he made Ocha or Ifa and talked to him extensively about his work in those early days. I met Fancisco in LA in 1969 when he played the bembe for my Ocha. Both Aguabella and Collazo were Omo Anya in Cuba as young men. Olubata and omo anya are two different ranks inside of Anya.

Best regards,
Facundo

[Facundo]

How the Yoruba tradition came to New York....


http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2838/is_n2_v29/ai_17534773

greetings,
Arsenio.

Arsenio,

That article dosen't even scratch the service of that history.

Facundo

[zaragenca]

brother Facundo,I really don't know what are you trying to rectified,I said that there was not movies in the 50's about bataleros,(that somebody could put some bataleros in a movie for some reasons is a differents story),in relation to Julito,and Aguabella,(there is nothing to clarified since I specifically said,OLU/BATA),I never mentioned any thing about Omo/Ana... In relation to Oriate, I knew that the first Oriate in Cuba were womens,and I never said that Babalawos were the first Oriate in Cuba,I already know long time ago that there are some differences between Habana and Matanzas,(I come from there),and I have been in both places,and more...In relation to the great amount of Yorubas coming to Cuba... Which are them,how do you know that they were Yorubas?....Where in Cuba arrived that great amount of Yorubas?....Now in relation to Obaluaye..Have you ever talked with somebody which is of the lineage of the people from the Araras?. .Have you ever witnessed the encarnation of Obaluaye,or(Babaluaye) in another person and observed of what he did,or said?.Dr. Zaragemca



Edited By zaragenca on 1159379258

[Facundo]

brother Facundo,I really don't know what are you trying to rectified,I said that there was not movies in the 50's about bataleros,(that somebody could put some bataleros in a movie for some reasons is a differents story),in relation to Julito,and Aguabella,(there is nothing to clarified since I specifically said,OLU/BATA),I never mentioned any thing about Omo/Ana... In relation to Oriate, I knew that the first Oriate in Cuba were womens,and I never said that Babalawos were the first Oriate in Cuba,I already know long time ago that there are some differences between Habana and Matanzas,(I come from there),and I have been in both places,and more...In relation to the great amount of Yorubas coming to Cuba... Which are them,how do you know that they were Yorubas?....Where in Cuba arrived that great amount of Yorubas?....Now in relation to Obaluaye..Have you ever talked with somebody which is of the lineage of the people from the Araras?. .Have you ever witnessed the encarnation of Obaluaye,or(Babaluaye) in another person and observed of what he did,or said?.Dr. Zaragemca

Doc Z,

What! Are you serious? One thing I pride myself on is writing clearly. Do you read what you write? Do you ever pay attention to the core topic?

Beyond that you write things about people you don't know. Julito told me himself that he studied with Pablo Roche. Yet you say to David that he was not a disipulo of Pablo. Wrong!

".Back to Thomas I konw about several movies which have Aguabella featured on it,(but these movies weren't made in the 1950's when Aguabella was playing with Katherine, these movies were made after the Bata drum came to the U.S.A.,..but neither Aguabella,or Collazo were Olu/Batas when they came with Katherine,both of them returned to Cuba and continued the study after that.Dr. Zaragemca"

The above statement is completely wrong!

Facundo

[Thomas Altmann]

Another film that had batá drums was "La Red" by Emilio "El Indio" Fernandez (Mexico 1953):

Greetings,

TA

[Thomas Altmann]

Now that I know how to send pictures, here is the photo that John Amira had sent me. It shows Pablo Roche (back row, standing left), an unknown person (right) and seated from left to right Trinidad Torregrosa, Raúl Díaz, and Giraldo Rodríguez. It shows the close association of all these drummers:

John does not have any doubt that Giraldo was a disciple of Okilakua.

Thomas

[zaragenca]

Well Facundo anybody could capitalize in the name of Roche,but I know how it was in Cuba at that time,it was not like a marching school were anybody is waiting to sign up for class,Pablo didn't have a necessity to teach anybody else becouse he already have its ensemble and he was a busy men,playing ceremonies not only in Habana,but all over Cuba,in the picture Giraldo is subject to Raul 'Nasaco' Diaz which is the one playing the Iya,..relationship doesn't mean that he is on the one on one with the batalero,(which is needed to be called a teacher),also in relation of the movies I'm talking about the movies in Cuba,i don't have control of the movies all over the world.Dr. Zaragemca



Edited By zaragenca on 1159387475

[davidpenalosa]

...you write things about people you don't know.

I see this as the crux of the problem. Zaragenca, you are astounding! So now you are calling Julito Collazo a liar?! You continue to claim some kind of ultimate knowledge over fellow forum members, even though you continually get corrected and proven wrong.

I enjoy debates, but this type of farce is tiresome.
-David

[zaragenca]

I would like to be in the picture with Roche too if I was around him,(do that men that his teaching me)...there are thousends of people with me in pictures,(do that mean that I'm their teacher?..not),.. in only mean association, but anybody which know about batas know that the players are subject to the Iya,(his is the Olu/bata of the ensemble)...In relation to Giraldo I said in the other posting that the one in the picture was Jesus Perez and not Giraldo, that was my debate at that time,so there is nothing to prove me wrong anyway.Dr. Zaragemca



Edited By zaragenca on 1159387543