Giraldo Rodriguez-Afro Tambores Bata - by Tomas Altmann

[zaragenca]

Brother David,and the rest of the brothers in this subject,it is not the point that some Moslem people at one point would have entertain the idea of going around trying to learn to play Bata,(the are Moslem people in the U.S., which play Drum/Set,and I have Moslem/students which play Bongos and Congas,)..That doesn't change what I said,there is nothing to corroborated that they have been used to play in Yorubas/Ceremonies,and again the picture is not telling me that they belong to the society in charge of doing that for the Yorubas,neither that they are Yorubas,or Moslems,or that they knew how to make Batas,(it doesn't matter to me if the CD in the Smithsonian,or in the 'Court of the King Oliver'),I don't go by that media/stuff,I go by facts,(it doesn't show them playing for these ceremonies),so I go by what the picture is showing me my brother....Let me tell you an story,...when I came back from Florida to Houston,there were a few African/American ,( I have encouraged some africans),trying to pass to me as being Babalawos,(in the case of the africans),of being Yorubas,a few good questions from me took the mask out of them,two of the africans became my percussion/students,(among several of my students from Africa,India,Brazil,etc),the others guys with the Babalawo/story, they are around Houston with that story to other people but when they are close to me,(there is not Babalawo/story in front on me.Dr. Zaragemca



Edited By zaragenca on 1157135026

[Facundo]

Doc Z,
Ok, no need to get you under-ware in a bunch! No offense intended. We have different positions on this topic. It is obvious that it is inconceivable to you that Muslims would be initiated into Anya and be hired to play for ceremonies outside of their own religion. Believe it or not that is exactly the case in Nigeria. This has and is happening among some who belong to families that have provided Anya music for generations. Since this is their trade they continue to do so. Now, what constitutes corroboration for you is certainly subjective. However, I have been to Nigeria and passed to Ifa there and have seen this issue with my own eyes. What shocked me even more was to learn that there are even Muslim Babalawos! They are called Alajes. Needless to say they have a different approach to Ifa but they are Babalawos none the less. Understand, I am not talking about something I have heard second hand or something some taxicab scholar has written about. Also, unless your Muslim informants have been to Nigeria and seen this "phenomena" for themselves they can "rage" all they want to.

Now, what benchmark are you using to claim that the drums in the photo are made incorrectly? Remember bata predate Cuba and the picture is from Africa. More importantly, with what authority would you dare make such a superficial claim? Are the bata from Benin I posted made correctly? What makes bata true bata are what is inside not what you see externally. Let me also state that contrary to what you have posted ONLY A BABALAWO CAN ASCERTAIN WITH CERTAINTY THAT ANOTHER IS NOT A TRUE BABALAWO. That is not to say that a knowable aleyo (uninitiated) could not detect some level of fraud or impersonation but the true questions are another issue. As I have noted before, you need not make statements regarding a camp you are not a member of.

Best regards,
Facundo

Attachment: http://mycongaplace.com/forum/eng/uploa ... Benin.tiff

[davidpenalosa]

it is not the point that some Moslem people at one point would have entertain the idea of going around trying to learn to play Bata,

:D
Zaragemca,
I'm always happy to set the record straight for you. I really don't think your experiences with drum students of various ethnicities provides much proof any anything. Many of us have had direct contact with African musicians.

There are thousands of Moslem Yorubas. Clans which have played bata for many generations have relatively recently converted to Islam. In other words, the clans were playing bata long before they converted to Islam. Many Yoruba, such as King Sunny Ade are Christian. The spread of Islam and Christianity in Yorubaland is well documented. If you don't want to go to a library, there's plenty of info on the web for educating yourself on this subject.

Just one example comes from:
http://experts.about.com/e/d/de/Demographics_of_Nigeria.htm
Here's and excerpt from "Demographics of Nigeria":
"The Yoruba people are predominant in the southwest. Over half of the Yoruba s are Christian and about a quarter are Muslim, with the remainder following mostly traditional beliefs."

Less than a quarter of the African Yorubas now follow the traditional beliefs that are akin to Lukumi or Santeria in Cuba.

-Helpful Dave :;):

[Facundo]

Doc Z,
Ok, no need to get you under-ware in a bunch! No offense intended. We have different positions on this topic. It is obvious that it is inconceivable to you that Muslims would be initiated into Anya and be hired to play for ceremonies outside of their own religion. Believe it or not that is exactly the case in Nigeria. This has and is happening among some who belong to families that have provided Anya music for generations. Since this is their trade they continue to do so. Now, what constitutes corroboration for you is certainly subjective. However, I have been to Nigeria and passed to Ifa there and have seen this issue with my own eyes. What shocked me even more was to learn that there are even Muslim Babalawos! They are called Alajes. Needless to say they have a different approach to Ifa but they are Babalawos none the less. Understand, I am not talking about something I have heard second hand or something some taxicab scholar has written about. Also, unless your Muslim informants have been to Nigeria and seen this "phenomena" for themselves they can "rage" all they want to.

Now, what benchmark are you using to claim that the drums in the photo are made incorrectly? Remember bata predate Cuba and the picture is from Africa. More importantly, with what authority would you dare make such a superficial claim? Are the bata from Benin I posted made correctly? What makes bata true bata are what is inside not what you see externally. Let me also state that contrary to what you have posted ONLY A BABALAWO CAN ASCERTAIN WITH CERTAINTY THAT ANOTHER IS NOT A TRUE BABALAWO. That is not to say that a knowable aleyo (uninitiated) could not detect some level of fraud or impersonation but the true questions are another issue. As I have noted before, you need not make statements regarding a camp you are not a member of.

Best regards,
Facundo

PS - Check the photo gallary on this link and see old Cuba and old Africa
http://www.pierreverger.org/en/pierre_verger/biografia.htm

[zaragenca]

Ok brother Facundo,these are the facts,this picture isn't an ancient picture,it is a modern picture witn african dressing in modern clothing styles,(with european influence),the Bata that my ancestors brought from Africa were a well made Batas and that happened many years before this picture could even be taken,(and they were member of the society which was dedicated to perform this retuals,and that's the reason they knew how to properly made those drums,and the people in charge of the ceremonies were part of the society in charge of the ceremonies in Africa,and that's the reason that they knew the songs and everything in relation to those ceremonies ok,I don't have to accept any story less than that...You could take the picture of those Muslim in Africa which you said are Babalawos and them I would do a research to see if they are Muslims,and are Babalawos,that's the way I work,(and trust me there are around here a lot of Muslims and real Yorubas to make research)...Let me tell you something else my brother Facundo long,long before I came to this country...I have all the knowledge,and all the jurisdiction provided to me by my ancestors,Godfathers and ultimately the Orichas to know is somebody,( and I repeat Facundo,..if somebody is real or, is fake).Dr. Zaragemca



Edited By zaragenca on 1157222131

[davidpenalosa]

..I have all the knowledge,and all the jurisdiction provided to me by my ancestors,Godfathers and ultimately the Orichas..

:D
I was waiting for that!
-David

[Berimbau]

I think that it is a terrible mistake to project one's culture assumptions and values onto another culture. This has reached epedemic proportions in some African and African diasporan studies. This is even effecting traditional cultures in Africa, where local musical instruments are being reconceptualized within the framework of Diasporan instruments. Such is the case with many local African musical bows which are then compared with the Brasilian berimbau, and are then even reconfigured to conform with the expectations associated with that Brasilian instrument's performance practices! Even worse is the projection of a single Tu-Shona term "mbira" onto an entire family of lamellaphones. As Dr. Kubik warned me two decades ago, "At this rate soon we will not even know what we are talking about." Yes, it is important to be SPECIFIC!
Now I completely reject the idea that any African culture is somehow mired in a sonambulatory stasis. Ditto for the Diaspora! The dynamism of African cultures continually astounds me, and one should enjoy the richness of surprise and meaning within it's profoundly beautiful expressions. As such the organological diversity of bata drums should be studied on a case by case basis, and any value judgements based on any other cultural artifact should be avoided. Cultural comparison may be entered into, but with great care. This regreatabley seldom happens as a consequence of various political and psychological factors, both of which are on ample display here.
To David - the Brasilian bata are manifested in three seperate organological traditions. One is a concical bimembranophone, made of wood but NOT hourglass shaped, with two skin heads laced together with rawhide. The second looks like an old floor tom from a drum set, complete with two tunable skin heads and three legs. Although it is also at times called bata. only the top head is played, in a manner quite similar to the atabaques of Bahia. The third bata I've encountered in Brasil is exactly like the Cuban bata, either manufactured by LP or some other US firm, or by the growing number of Brasilian craftsmen who have copied those designs. This last case is a conscious attempt of adopting something seen as fundamentally "African" by the Brasilians, who increasingly prize such things. On every one of my field trips young Brasilian drummers ask me if the Cuban rhythms they have learned sound authentic enough to me. To hear guaguanco in Salvador, bembe guiro in Fortaleza, or a bata in Olinda is not so unusual now. In fact let me ask you this, are these young Brasilian guys ordering any product from Bembe? Trust me, this would be right up their alley these days and it all reminds me of what I saw in the NYC scene of the late 60's and early 70's - Afro-Consciousness!!!



Saludos,




Berimbau



Saludos,




Berimbau

[Berimbau]

David,
I must add that the first bata I described probably does go back to the influx of slaves during the Yoruba wars. I think there may be a strong Fon influence as well, it least in some of the terreiros in the Northeast. The other two are obviously later developments, and a bit out of my research area. Jose Carvalho has the skinny on all this. I could ask Dr. K or Thiago if he's still around somewhere.



Saludos,


Berimbau

[OLSONGO]

Could someone give me some info on this batas.

Paz OLSONGO

Attachment: http://mycongaplace.com/forum/eng/uploa ... -bata2.jpg

[zaragenca]

You need to be more specific in relation of what information you want in relation to this picture Olsongo.Dr. Zaragemca

[davidpenalosa]

1.
I think that it is a terrible mistake to project one's culture assumptions and values onto another culture.
I completely reject the idea that any African culture is somehow mired in a sonambulatory stasis. Ditto for the Diaspora! The dynamism of African cultures continually astounds me, and one should enjoy the richness of surprise and meaning within it's profoundly beautiful expressions. As such the organological diversity of bata drums should be studied on a case by case basis, and any value judgements based on any other cultural artifact should be avoided. Cultural comparison may be entered into, but with great care.

2.
... The third bata I've encountered in Brasil is exactly like the Cuban bata, either manufactured by LP or some other US firm, or by the growing number of Brasilian craftsmen who have copied those designs. This last case is a conscious attempt of adopting something seen as fundamentally "African" by the Brasilians, who increasingly prize such things.
..I must add that the first bata I described probably does go back to the influx of slaves during the Yoruba wars.
3.
..are these young Brasilian guys ordering any product from Bembe?

Berimbau,
1.
here here!
2.
This is most intriguing! So I'm wondering, what do these old Brazilian liturgical rhythms sound like? I'm aware of some songs that are shared by Lukumi and Candomble. While the bata are used to accompany the Lukumi songs, atabaques accompany the Candomble songs. Could there be Brazilian bata "toques" that like the Cuban liturgy, have been preserved since the early 1800's?
From what you've said here though, it seems more likely that Brazilians have somehow adopted the Cuban system.
3.
I'm not aware of any significant sales in Brazil for Bembe Records. However, I believe that it was Mark Lamson who found a bootlegged CD of "Bata Ketu" in Brazil! More than likely, most Cuban music is bootlegged in Brazil.

OLSONGO,
Those of course are African bata. The largest drum, lead is called "iya ilu" in both Cuba and Africa. The iya is the photo is not that unlike the Cuban version.
-David

[Berimbau]

Well David I'm so glad we are on the same page! After years of fieldwork I've grown to appreciate the fluidity in both nomenclature and organology from place to place. What one learns in culture A may not be applicable to culture B, even if they are only seperated by a few kilometers!!!! Now as to what may or may not materially constitute a bata drum for an individual in one culture should never be projected onto another culture. That means bringing in values and ideals that might be alien to the second culture being investigated. All cultures should be understood on their own terms! If an informant were to show me a Korean manufactured guitar and tell me he calls it a bata drum, I would note it AS SUCH. Now this doesn't mean that one would not footnote in a fieldbook that it constitutes a guitar for most cultures, but if the culture bearer conceptualizes that chordophone as a bata drum, then we might want to understand just how and why that happened. To do this one must first suspend one's own value judgements and cultural comparisons for the time being.
That said I must confess that I in fact know very little about Brasilian bata drumming. The whole research area of candomble music is now so over run with folklorists, anthropologists, ethnomusicologists, new agers, afro-centrics, and happy Japanese tour buses that I have nothing to add!!!!!!! However I do think that in some terreiros there is music that has a 100 year plus history, irregardless of the reinterpretations of the young generation.
here is a link to one of Carvalho's English langage publications, although I don't think he deals specifically with bata in it:
http://www.unb.br/ics....luis%22


Saludos,



Berimbau

[davidpenalosa]

1.
Now as to what may or may not materially constitute a bata drum for an individual in one culture should never be projected onto another culture.
2.
...but if the culture bearer conceptualizes that chordophone as a bata drum, then we might want to understand just how and why that happened.

3.
...I do think that in some terreiros there is music that has a 100 year plus history, irregardless of the reinterpretations of the young generation.

Berimbau,
Thanks for the link.
1.
agreed
2.
I would think of it as a chordophone that's known as a bata drum in its native land. But yes, I'd want to understand how and why that happened.
3.
The situation of the same songs in both Cuba and Brazil is just one fact supporting that idea. This Brazilian bata idea is intringuing though.
-David

[Facundo]

Ok brother Facundo,these are the facts,this picture isn't an ancient picture,it is a modern picture witn african dressing in modern clothing styles,(with european influence),the Bata that my ancestors brought from Africa were a well made Batas and that happened many years before this picture could even be taken,(and they were member of the society which was dedicated to perform this retuals,and that's the reason they knew how to properly made those drums,and the people in charge of the ceremonies were part of the society in charge of the ceremonies in Africa,and that's the reason that they knew the songs and everything in relation to those ceremonies ok,I don't have to accept any story less than that...You could take the picture of those Muslim in Africa which you said are Babalawos and them I would do a research to see if they are Muslims,and are Babalawos,that's the way I work,(and trust me there are around here a lot of Muslims and real Yorubas to make research)...Let me tell you something else my brother Facundo long,long before I came to this country...I have all the knowledge,and all the jurisdiction provided to me by my ancestors,Godfathers and ultimately the Orichas to know is somebody,( and I repeat Facundo,..if somebody is real or, is fake).Dr. Zaragemca

Doc Z,
I invite you and other list members to visit the Verger Foundation web-page. http://www.pierreverger.org/en/pierre_v ... grafia.htm
With regard to the age of the photo it was taken in 1958, which I agree could hardly be considered to be ancient times. However, "ancient" is a relative and one that I have never heard used with regard to the Afro-Cuban cultural preservations in Cuba. The key period associated to their "full" establishment being from the mid 1800 to the mid 1900. Again, hardly "ancient" times. The photo is typical of the "era" in which many of the old religious hierarchy or their direct decentness of Cuba were still alive.

With regard to these early founders of Afro Cuban culture being folk who ran ceremonies in Africa, there are many reasons to doubt that being the case. First and foremost, it does not hold up to the object of slavery. Slaves were needed in the West for hard labor. Which would mean that the ideal export would be the youth. Needless to say, while many were deeply involved in the practices, they were hardly the great repositories of such information. There are host of implications in all of this. Bottom line, one (You) should be very careful saying that an African practice is incorrect while using Cuba as a benchmark. I will close by saying that I wish this wasn't a topic of debate. The erosion of the traditional practices in Africa is something that greatly saddens me. Again, visit the Verger site. His photo gallery is filled with pictures of an era we will never see again both in Africa and the Diaspora. Yes, do your research but as noted take take it beyond interviews with Muslim drum students! Go to the field like I did.

Best regards,
Facundo

[Facundo]

I think that it is a terrible mistake to project one's culture assumptions and values onto another culture. This has reached epedemic proportions in some African and African diasporan studies.. .. .. .....

Now I completely reject the idea that any African culure is somehow mired in a sonambulatory stasis. Ditto for the Diaspora! The dynamism of African cultures continually astounds me, and one should enjoy the richness of surprise and meaning within it's profoundly beautiful expressions. As such the organological diversity of bata drums should be studied on a case by case basis, and any value judgements based on any other cultural artifact should be avoided. Cultural comparison may be entered into, but with great care. This regreatabley seldom happens as a consequence of various political and psychological factors, both of which are on ample display here.
To David - the Brasilian bata are manifested in three seperate organological traditions. One is a concical bimembranophone, made of wood but NOT hourglass shaped, with two skin heads laced together with rawhide. . . . .. . . . . . .

Brother B,

Eloquently stated! I would add, that in the old liner notes for Folk Music of Cuba by Folkways there is a picture of conical shaped bata. These are note the hourglass that we normally see from Cuba.

Best regards,
Facundo