Giraldo Rodriguez-Afro Tambores Bata - by Tomas Altmann

[Facundo]

On Bàtà I have a different opinion as the former members who contributed, it is only after the Cuban revolution that those drums are used in populair music and that the dances of the orishas, are used by the National Folkloristic Ensemble of Cuba, but, a lot of high priests of Santeria, have resisted this or are against it.

Arsenio,

That is not true. Trinidad Torregosa who not only made fundamento bata but also played with the late and very famous Pablo Roche, played none consecreated bata in Cuban night clubs before the revolution.

Best regards,
Facundo

[Thomas Altmann]

Loving the dialogue,
Facundo

- My pleasure! Hopefully not the last time. Although we have strayed considerably from the original subject. Meanwhile, we must have about 3-4 topics diguised under Afro Tambores Bata!

TA

[davidpenalosa]

There is a lot of cult tourism going on at the moment, and a lot of fake shows but this is not as it was meant by the ancestors.

Arsenio.
Are you claiming to possess a special knowledge of what The ancestors intended?
-David

[arsenio]

I like to respond on two issues. First, there were before the Revolution, Cuban musicians, using Bàtà, but not on a regular basis, for example Bebo Valdes, by creating his version of the mambo, called batanga.

In Cuba, before the Revolution, everything related to Africa was forbidden, that is way Cuban Son is actually a disguised Cuban Rumba.

Secondly on the issue of the ancestors, he or she who knows the slave trade and the holocaust called slavery should know that we should be very careful with the Yoruba heritage.

If I have special knowledge, I am not revealing it, out of respect of those who died in the African holocaust.

Ifa, ifa, ifa,
Arsenio.
hijo de Chango

[Facundo]

I have been reading this post with a lot of interest and thankfull to the persons who have contributed with their knowldge, as I have learned things that I have heard of fragmently, but didn't know much about.
What brought me here is the love of drum and the sound of the Bata. And this thing of secrecy... I can say that over 30 years my religion or philisophy has been Taoism, as I found that out of all of the religions on earth, it has contributed the most in order to leave on this planet , espiritually and materialistic; without secrecies. All at the reach of every common folk so that we can be at peace and in balance.
And always reminding us that at times we have to empty our cup in order to fill it up again.

Paz OLSONGO

Olsongo,

You have no idea how much I appreciate your comment! It almost seems like you have been a fly on the wall listening to some of my private conversations. Often I use that same analogy of the filled cup! It was the sound of the drum and the mysteries that attracted me as well and the first time I heard bata I knew that I was hooked for life!

I have also had a long time love affair with Taoism although my chosen religious path has been Orisha and Ifa. There is much that these two spiritual expressions have in common even though their methods differ greatly. Yet often they express homage for the same thing. The core concepts related to the Tao and Olodumare are very much alike. Chi and ashe are very much related if not the same. Both Taoism and Orisha practice are about finding balance and equilibrium in one's life via living in harmony with nature which is the greatest testimony of the existence of a mysterious source, the Tao / Olodumare.

You know, in Yoruba "mythology" it is said that Shango traveled the world as a young man to find his fortune in life before being seated as the king of Oyo. Every place he went was given a praise name related to his adventures in that area. The word "Fileni" in his rezos make note of his travels in China.

On the issue of secrecy- Yes, there are many secrets inside the Yoruba religious traditions as there are in other religions. The profound secrets of any tradition are maintained as such to insure that those that had not elevated their character and ethics an appropriate level to handle the mysteries properly could not access the information. Even the deepest knowledge in Taoism is only accessed over much time an effort under the watchful eye of a master. Again, character and ethical behavior is obligatory. How different would the world be if the Chinese had insisted on this before sharing the secret of gunpowder with the West?

Best regards,
Facundo

[onile]

In youth we yearn for the knowledge of the elders!
Life then awards us with wisdom, if we choose to take it, but takes from us our youth!

I have been reading the posts of this thread, as I'm sure many of us have! Let me say first and foremost, as I've read on a couple of posts here, that I appreciate the incredibly informative and elloquent discussions from you brothers. You all have enlightened many of us, and yet at the same time, demonstrated kindness and patience for the opposing views of one. Well, maybe it's just been the language factor, but none the less....it's surely frustrating at times. Please keep up the wonderful discussion, I'm learing much.

Adupue Abures Mi!

Onile!



Edited By onile on 1158681732

[davidpenalosa]

...Cuban Son is actually a disguised Cuban Rumba.

Arsenio,
From my reading, everyone here has been talking about religion, culture and ethnicity with repsect. Your quoted comment took me aback though. If you are asserting that son is a disguised rumba, then you are revealing a fundamental lack of knowledge concerning Cuban music.
-David

[arsenio]

I like to make 2 contributions, the first one is, that I have a great admiration for the Yoruba-tradition, in Nigeria, Cuba and the New World, it has not very much to do with the Cuban music played all over the world, only in Timba, starting in the 90s you will find a lot of Santeria influences.

So those guys talking about what they know about Santeria, do not know anything about Cuban music!

The second contribution is that if you study Changüí very influential in the development of the Son de Oriente, you will find all kind of disguised elements of Cuban rumba, not seeing this or understanding this, is not my problem.

[davidpenalosa]

... Changüí very influential in the development of the Son de Oriente, you will find all kind of disguised elements of Cuban rumba, not seeing this or understanding this, is not my problem.

Rumba comes from the western end of Cuba and is based on clave. Changüí (as you correctly stated), comes from the Oriente, but it is not based on clave. Rumba and changüí have completely different instrumentation. Could you please identify one element of changüí that could be interpreted as a disguised element of rumba? Thank you in advance.
-David



Edited By davidpenalosa on 1158694079

[Facundo]

I like to make 2 contributions, the first one is, that I have a great admiration for the Yoruba-tradition, in Nigeria, Cuba and the New World, it has not very much to do with the Cuban music played all over the world, only in Timba, starting in the 90s you will find a lot of Santeria influences.

So those guys talking about what they know about Santeria, do not know anything about Cuban music!

The second contribution is that if you study Changüí very influential in the development of the Son de Oriente, you will find all kind of disguised elements of Cuban rumba, not seeing this or understanding this, is not my problem.

Arsenio,

You must be very young. Long before there were a lot "Santeria Music" or records I used to listen to Chano Pozo playing with Mercelito Valdez, Diz and a host of Cuban bands. FYI- Back then it was called Afro Cuban music! Please do not assume what a person does not know about without asking. Thomas can respond for himself but I know he is an active musician playing all kinds of music.

You saying :
"In Cuba, before the Revolution, everything related to Africa was forbidden, that is way Cuban Son is actually a disguised Cuban Rumba."

Is absolutely wrong. Again, the night clubs in Cuba had all kinds of "Afro Cuban" being played by the house bands and the floor shows had rumba and Santeria influenced dances. In some instances they even imported trained African American dance companies to come and perform with their musicians. Have you ever heard of Walter Nicks, Katharine Dunham, Pearl Premus & Percival Board? Just like here in America, Black influence is what gave the national music its' uniqueness. And just like here it was well marketed and displayed to the public.

Yes, there was a period in Cuban's history that African based religious practices were banned. See older posts about " La Nina Zoela (sp). However, that had little to do with secular music pre revolution. Also, "disguised elements" is a relative term that implies hiding which I don't think applies in this case. What you are talking about is the "borrowing of " or being "influenced by musical" elements of Afro Cuban music.

I will bow out of this for now as Cuban music history is really Doc Z's forte should he care to contribute his knowledge about this.

Best regards,
Facundo

[Thomas Altmann]

Thomas can respond for himself but I know he is an active musician playing all kinds of music.

Oh, I did not feel addressed in any way ...

TA

[Facundo]

Oh, I did not feel addressed in any way ...

TA

Yeah, point taken. I should have taken the same position!

[arsenio]

Guys,

I know you act like a bunch of wise guys knowing everything. I know that Santeria was there from the moment Yoruba slaves were transported to Cuba. On a large scale, only after 1865. After the civil wars, going on in Nigeria. So before then, what was played and who came as slave to Cuba?

In the black neighbourhoods afrocuban music was never absent, I am well informed on Commercial Rumba before the Revolution in the nightclubs, cabarets etc., but that was no Yoruba music!

So I stick to my point that using Santeria music in populair Cuban music, is something from after the Revolution and especially from the 90s, when used in Timba.

Yes, the stereotyps of Cuban music such as "rumba is from the west" and "the Son from the east" are familiar to me.

Someone who has only studied a little bit of the work of Danilo Orozco or say, Benjamin Lapidus on Cuban Son and Changüí, would immediately recognize the Rumba elements, even the grooves.

And guys, the one of you, interested in Rumba and rumba-son, should look at this link, it is an interesting study on Cuban rumba, which is free to download.

http://www.geocities.com/aficionadolatino/salonrumba.html

[davidpenalosa]

Someone who has only studied a little bit of the work of Danilo Orozco or say, Benjamin Lapidus on Cuban Son and Changüí, would immediately recognize the Rumba elements, even the grooves.

Arsenio,
I’m willing to give you the benefit of the doubt and am very willing to discuss any evidence you wish to bring forward in support of your contention that changüí is a "disguised rumba". I'm sure I would find such a discussion stimulating.

Apparently though, you can’t back up your statement with anything. I asked you to identify one element of changüí that could be interpreted as a disguised element of rumba. Just ONE, that’s all. This is your opportunity to walk your talk.
-David

[davidpenalosa]

And guys, the one of you, interested in Rumba and rumba-son, should look at this link, it is an interesting study on Cuban rumba, which is free to download.

http://www.geocities.com/aficionadolatino/salonrumba.html

Arsenio,
Thanks for posting this webpage. I think it provides a good departure point for a discussion on son and rumba. I'll address the section on "rumba de salón" in the "miscellaneous forum" since we have strayed far from the subject of the "Giraldo Rodriguez-Afro Tambores Bata" record.
-David