Giraldo Rodriguez-Afro Tambores Bata - by Tomas Altmann

[zaragenca]

In relation to Pobe,(located in the actual Benin Republic,not Nigeria),this was the settlement from the people out of the first migration off Benin/City,(the one in Nigeria),when the Ogisos/Dynasty were living there,(but they weren't even called Yorubas at that time, but the Edo/people....They set up in Ketu,..were in contact with the Yorubas through the Yorubas Caravan to Dahomey/Abomay,(this before the European and even before the Muslim started controlling that part of West/Africa,(at that point some people moved back to Ibadan and other cities)....When the relationship with the Yorubas started getting antagonic the Oyo/Calvary was sended there becouse they were obstructing the Yorubas/Trade in the West, they were forced to pay contribution till about mid 1800's to the Yorubas., They are captalizing in everything what is going on and create a annual festival in which they raise money through visitors and sells of articles,...(all the ceremonies in the real Benin/City were conducted inside the Palace and foreign people were not allowed in the City.),at one point these people might have observed the Yorubas/Drum after it became famoused,but they really don't know how to make them..Dr. Zaragemca



Edited By zaragenca on 1157492985

[Facundo]

[quote="zaragenca"][/quote]
Doc Z,

Once again, you present speculative historical fluff to evade and obscure the issue. I repeat "by what benchmark" do you determine that bata from Benin are incorrectly made? And again, it is what is "inside" the bata that makes them "true bata". As strange as it might seem, that secret did not originate with the Yoruba people. The celebrated Cuban Oriate Nicolas Angarica also noted that in his writings. I maintain that such a definitive statement as yours can only be made by one who is himself an initiated insider and has had the opportunity to see with his own eyes the complete construction of the drums to deem them unauthentic. Clearly, this is not the position from which you comment. African based cultural practices have already had to much bad press and unfair depiction from biased scholars. Those of us who are involved with them in any form have an obligation to correct the inaccuracies as we find them. Egotistical posturing should not have a place in this pursuit

Respectfully submitted,
Facundo

[niallgregory]

Hi Guys ,

we seem to have 2 different discussions going on at the same time , oh well .Just looked at the dvd of the ceremony that ive got.Its an umbanda ceremony from Manaus filmed in 2003 by a friend of mine .As a said earlier it has 3 atabaque players and a guy to the left playing what i can only describe as a bata on a stand .It is the same size at both ends ,and isnt in an hour glass shape like cuban bata . The playing technique would appear to be identical to cuban Bata i.e open tones on one end and slap tones on the other . Rhythm wise its hard to differentiate between the atabaques and the bata , the sound is drowned out a bit .I will try an put up some of the footage online for you check out . Cheers .Niall .



Edited By niallgregory on 1157562153

[zaragenca]

Facundo,I already said that I always go by facts,you cann't assure that those drums have anything inside becouse you didn't witnessed them making it,neither I witnessed that ,(there are a lot of abericulas Batas around,(an even better made than those),I'm not specularing anything just historical facts which are related to me by the people which know that history,an even when Pobe is in the actual Republic of Benin,(That LOCATION IS NOT THE REAL YORUBA/Benin City in Nigeria...Nicolas Valetin Angarica which did write its Oriate book in 1950's have nothing to do with these, my Godfather Gerardo de Las Mercedes was an Oriate too. I know the whole lineage of the Yorubas in Cuba,even who was Nicolas Angarica's Godfather,and who was the first Oriate and the first Babalawo in Cuba...That have nothing to do with these.Dr. Zaragemca



Edited By zaragenca on 1157565645

[Facundo]

[quote="zaragenca"][/quote]
Dear Brother,

Please note:
"Facundo,I already said that I always go by facts,you cann't assure that those drums have anything inside becouse you didn't witnessed them making it,neither I witnessed that "

THEN WITH NO DEGREE OF CERTAINTY CAN YOU STATE THEY ARE NOT TRUE BATA - SPECULATION!

"(there are a lot of abericulas Batas around,(an even better made than those)" YOU RE- SPECULATE - THEY ARE ABERICULA

"...Nicolas Valetin Angarica which did write its Oriate book in 1950's have nothing to do with these, "

QUITE THE CONTRARY: THERE IS NO ANYA WITHOUT OSAIN! ANGARICA, for one, NOTES: THAT OSAIN DID NOT COME FROM YORUBALAND. SO THE DRUMMERS IN THE PHOTO "POSSIBLEY" NOT BEING YORUBA DOES NOT INSURE THE DRUMS ARE NOT BATA WITH ANYA IN THEM! THAT IS SPECULATION ON YOUR PART!

HOWEVER, IT IS HIGHLY LIKELY THAT IF THEY ARE NOT YORUBA THERE IS A VERY DEEP CONNECTION VIA ODUDUA. See site below which contends that the founder of the YORUBA , ODUDUA, was from Benin! http://www.dawodu.net/origin.htm

Facundo

[Berimbau]

Hey Facundo!
It's great to be reading your posts again. Dr. Z - I think that your search for the "authentic" or "emic" here is more than a bit Quixotic. EVERYTHING is authentically something......batas....Mona Lisas...even Ashlee Simpson!!! It's all in your perspective, so if the drums in that old picture aren't bata to you, well that's fine with me. Others apparently don't agree with you, and that's also fine with me. Such disagreements are certainly not unique to the Orishas.



Saludos,



Berimbau

[Facundo]

Thanks B,

I enjoy reading yours as well. The recent exchange between you and David was excellent. Your comments on this thread essentially closes it down for me. I should have ended it awhile back. Hope you are recovering ok from Katria. Losing personal items and research collected over the years must really be difficult to deal with. You have my deepest empathy.

Best regards,
Facundo

[zaragenca]

Brother Facundo,..for some reasons you didn't get the whole information I was trying to convey to you, I said that this people setting in Pobe,(actual Republic of Benin),were the one getting out of Nigeria during the Ogisos first migration out of Benin-city,(which at that time was NOT even called Benin),the one who set up that name and brought the Yoruba/Religion and Ifa/ teaching to that place was Oranmiyan,...also he,(Oranmiyan),was the one which set up the name BENIN, to that location,and he was the one which change the leadership from,Ogisos/name,..to Oba/name,...now this people,(the Pobe/people), left that location,before Oranmiyan would get there,...(it is called the first migration of the Ogisos from Benin,(but again at that time they were called Edo/people,...not Yorubas)....Not everybody in Nigeria,(not even in the ancient/city of Ile/Ife,became Yoruba, the Yorubas Landlords have a lot of people working for them which never became Yorubas,(they were Igbos,Ijo,Ijaws,Edos,etc,etc,etc...The same thing in Cuba not everybody which was even married to a Yoruba/Religion person became automatically Yoruba, for the same token that not everybody which was born in Rome is automatically Catholic,or not everybody which is born in Arabia,became automatically Muslim. and for the third time I never said that those drums are not Batas,(you look back to my posting and found out were did I say that the drums don't look like Batas, that I said it doesn't look well made,that is my prerrogative,.. Every thing else is facts of history conveyed to me...... The establisment of Oduduwa in Ile/Ife,triggered what is called the 'First Migration out of Ile/Ife', those were the Edos which set up around those locations which later was known as Benin,and setting up the Ogisos/Dynasty,there were around 38 Ogisos,..again, (38) Ogisos,...before Oramiyan was requested to go there to fix the straggles which they had at that time,(I know why the history have been change around),but there are a lot of decendants, so somebody knows,.. and there are some archiologic research which hold that story,(a more rustic settlement, and later a more sophisticated settlement in Ile/Ife)... Also the research around Benin said the same, Ile/Ife first and Benin settlement second. I'm doing my homework.Dr. Zaragemca



Edited By zaragenca on 1157741727

[davidpenalosa]

...at one point these people might have observed the Yorubas/Drum after it became famoused,but they really don't know how to make them..

The classification "Yoruba" is a relatively new term coined by the British colonial authorities during the 19th Century. This large West African linguistic group did not refer to themselves as Yoruba, but as Bunu, Ife, Ijesha, Ondo, Owo, Igbena, Gbedde, Akono, Ilaje, Awori, Ila, Ijebu, Oyo, Yagba, Egba, Ekiti, Aworo, Ijumu, Kalae, or Owe. Today, each of these are considered dialects of Yoruba. My dad is a linguist and he says that what determines a dialect and what's a language is often a matter of politics. This would apply to any Yoruba/Lukumi comparisons as well.

That said, the term "Yoruba" is universally accepted today. The Republic of Benin has four main ethnic groups: Fon, Yoruba, Voltaic, and Fulani. The Yoruba of Pobe, Benin are just as "Yoruba" as the Yoruba of Oshogbo, Nigeria.
-David

[zaragenca]

Welcome brother David,'Lucumi' have never been a Tribe in any place in Nigeria, not in the time of Oduduwa,neither in the time of Oranmiyan,or after,the one which started colling these people to the west Yoruba were the Araras,and later the Muslim,(these before the Portuguese came to Benin),and the Portuguese were there before the British...but I'm not talking about any dialect...I'm talking about been born into the Yoruba/Religion and living the Ifa/mandate,that's what I'm talking about,and many people in Africa have never done that they just want to capitalize in the name,...now that the Yoruba/name is recognized around the world.Dr. Zaragemca



Edited By zaragenca on 1157998030

[davidpenalosa]

1.
'Lucumi' have never been a Tribe in any place in Nigeria,
2.
...but I'm not talking about any dialect...I'm talking about been born into the Yoruba/Religion and living the Ifa/mandate,that's what I'm talking about,and many people in Africa have never done that they just want to capitalize in the name,...now that the Yoruba/name is recognized around the world.

Welcome brother Zaragemca,
1.
If you carefully re-read my post, you will see that I never suggested that Lucumi is a "Tribe" (PC term: ethnic group) in Nigeria. You have incorrectly made this assumption before. I must not be writing clearly. I was referring to comparisons of Cuban Lukumi to Nigerian Yoruba.
2.
You seem to be suggesting somehow that the Yoruba of Pobe, Benin are not "born into the Yoruba/Religion and living the Ifa/mandate". That is just false. The international boundaries do not culturally divide the Yoruba people. Ifá lives with the Yoruba of Benin as much as the Yoruba of Nigeria. Ifá has been in Benin longer than it has been in Cuba. Yes, it is universally understood that it came from Ile Ife, but long ago, Ifá spread out beyond the boundaries of that holy city.

In fact, the Oracle of Ifá is an important foundation of the Fon and Ewe people of Benin, Togo and Ghana as well. There are plenty of books out there if anyone is interested in learning more about the Yoruba-Fon-Ewe cultural affiliations.

According to William Bascom ("Ifa Divination: Communication Between Gods and Men in West Africa" and "Sixteen Cowries: Yoruba Divination from Africa to the New World"),THE definitive book on Ifá is "La Geomancia A L’ Ancienne Cote des Esclaves" by Bernard Maupoil (written 1936, published 1961). Mr. Maupoil’s primary informants were Benin’s (then called Dahomey) oldest babalawos, born in the mid 19th Century. I own a rare English translation of the book.

Here’s an excerpt from page 4:

"The Word (Ifá) Fa
The word Fa is used by the Fon. The people of Ife, the Yoruba, say Ifa, and the Mine of Togo say Afa."

Recommended listening:

o "Ifá - Oro" from "Yoruba Drums from Benin, West Africa" (Smithsonian /Folkways CD 40440, 1996)
o "Orchestre de Fá" and "Légendes et chants sur Fá" from "Benin – Rhythms and songs for the vodun" (VDE CD 612, 1990)
o "Afá" from "Ewe Drumming from Ghana" (Topic Records CD 924, 2004)

-David

[zaragenca]

When did I said that anybody was not into the Yoruba/Religion David, I'm only referring to historical facts,and if anybody became Yorubas after a while that's fine to me, but the point is that the people in the picture,(which is my concern, don't reflect anything in relation neither of Yorubas,or Muslim), Ifa have nothing to do with the Fon/culture,(if anybody learned that it the Fon, it was through the Yorubas), and the Fon people which came to Cuba,didn't know anything about it,so I don't know when they learn it,(but there is a lot of books around the world now for the people tp read), and learn if they want to),but nobody can replace the ceremony to become Yoruba anyway,(it is not a free/way to become Yorubas),that's is the reason that nobody couldn't come to me,(not even from Africa), and tell me that they are Yorubas without me finding out, (if I really want to) if they are really Yorubas.Dr. Zargemca



Edited By zaragenca on 1158077205

[davidpenalosa]

Ifa have nothing to do with the Fon/culture

You would benifit from talking with a Fon or Yoruba sometime - and I don't mean Cuban Arara or Lukumi, I mean African practioners of Ifá. You seem to have no interest in expanding your knowledge though.

-David

[Facundo]

Hey David,

"In fact, the Oracle of Ifá is an important foundation of the Fon and Ewe people of Benin, Togo and Ghana as well. There are plenty of books out there if anyone is interested in learning more about the Yoruba-Fon-Ewe cultural affiliations."

You are absolutely correct even today Benin has some of the strongest enclaves of Ifa practitioners. I know several Babalawos that go there periodically to study. There is also very strong evidence that the Ifa lines of Cuba actually inherited much of their methodology from Benin.

"You seem to be suggesting somehow that the Yoruba of Pobe, Benin are not "born into the Yoruba/Religion and living the Ifa/mandate". That is just false. The international boundaries do not culturally divide the Yoruba people. Ifá lives with the Yoruba of Benin as much as the Yoruba of Nigeria. Ifá has been in

Correct again. I would add that the term Yoruba Religion is nebulous in that the religion is an aspect of the overall Yoruba cultural construct. Additionally, a great deal of borrowing of deities, concepts and methodologies have been exchanged between ethic / regional groups that are collectively called Yoruba. One example that exemplifies this is the propitiation of the Orisha Olokun which is a major controbution from Benin. As noted in a previous post this inclusion / borrowing has even come from outside of the Yoruba as well. That being the case, "born into the Yoruba/Religion and living the Ifa/mandate" holds little

"Yes, it is universally understood that it came from Ile Ife, but long ago, Ifá spread out beyond the boundaries of that holy city."

As the link I sent in a previous post suggests, Ile Ife Nigeria may not be the original source. Note below:

Prince Ekaladerhan "of Benin" who Became Imadoduwa (Oduduwa) Obalufon
the Ooni of Ile-Ife: The Edo Origin of Ile-Ife Monarchy

Oduduwa is considered to be the grand progenitor of many of the ethnic groups that collectively call themselves Yoruba today. However, there are several facts that complicate the first Ife's actual location.

1. Much of information on Ife is gleaned from oral history, some of which is taken directly from Ifa poetry. However, what appears outsiders as history is allegory and not meant to be taken literally.
2. Even though Oduduwa is buried in today's Ife, there are accounts of Ife having fallen due to war and another location given that name with the migration of its' inhabitants. This is also true of Oyo.
3. Even the name Ile Ife as a place has been used allegorically.

It would appear that the extensive archeological investigation would be needed to confrim what is history and what is not. Of course, not much of that has been done. Also, many of the relevant artifacts are either in foreign museums or private collections.

Question: Was the translation of Maupoi's work on Ifa you mentioned done by John Turpin?

Best regards,
Facundo

[davidpenalosa]

I.… the term Yoruba Religion is nebulous in that the religion is an aspect of the overall Yoruba cultural construct. Additionally, a great deal of borrowing of deities, concepts and methodologies have been exchanged between ethic / regional groups that are collectively called Yoruba. One example that exemplifies this is the propitiation of the Orisha Olokun which is a major controbution from Benin. As noted in a previous post this inclusion / borrowing has even come from outside of the Yoruba as well. That being the case, "born into the Yoruba/Religion and living the Ifa/mandate" holds little

II.
1. Much of information on Ife is gleaned from oral history, some of which is taken directly from Ifa poetry. However, what appears outsiders as history is allegory and not meant to be taken literally.
2. Even though Oduduwa is buried in today's Ife, there are accounts of Ife having fallen due to war and another location given that name with the migration of its' inhabitants. This is also true of Oyo.
3. Even the name Ile Ife as a place has been used allegorically.

It would appear that the extensive archeological investigation would be needed to confrim what is history and what is not.

III. Was the translation of Maupoi's work on Ifa you mentioned done by John Turpin?

I. I understand that Bablú Ayé is originally from the Fon of Benin (Dahomey).

II. I imagine that could be controversial with science at odds with faith.

III. The very same. I was a financial backer with John, in what I understand to still be an unrealized effort to get the translation published. I have photo-copied pages that were bound at Kinkos.

-David