History sub-forum - For debate and learning

[Berimbau]

Amigos,
Now we're getting into areas where most posters here seem to have little valuable knowledge to share. Until someone actually cites something beyond bad bar room conjecture (now where in #### do you people drink, for God's sake?) I suggest reading a few PRIMARY texts on this subject:

1.) The Atlantic Slave Trade A Census by Phillip Curtin
2.) The Slave Trade by Hugh Thomas
3.) The African Slave Trade by Basil Davidson
4.) Black Cargoes by Mannix & Cowley
5.) The Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade by James Rawley
6.) Trade Relations between the Bight of Benin and Bahia by Pierre Verger

These are just a few of the better English language texts available from your local library or Amazon. I could go on and on and list some French, Spanish, or Portuguese books as well. Please have at least a VAGUE idea of what you are talking about before posting anymore *&^#$ on the slave trade here. Our music and culture deserve far better than that!!



Saludos,



Berimbau

[franc]

Master historian?? Berimbau, perdona sa'e!!!! thanks i'll look into it :p what's this History subforum for,then?? what book would you suggest about spain slave trade??? i am interested in the yoruba tribe. my best, take care and aché :rock: franc

[Berimbau]

Dear Franc,
First, I'm no "master historian" nor could I ever claim to be. But it is also painfully obvious that no one else here is either!!!!! However, I am an ethnomusicologist with an ongoing 30 year plus study of the cultural dimensions of the central African Diaspora, I have done fieldwork on four continents, and I have a number of academic publications to my credit. Now that and $2.45 will buy you a gallon of gas in Memphis!!
My assumption was that this new history forum would be a place to come to learn and share. In most of the other areas of the Congaboard, I have learned MANY things from our colleagues and I am grateful for that! Yet it is SO frustrating that we are already off to a rather poor start even for amateur historians!! So if I sound a bit pissy, I am!!! We need to be careful not to turn this excellent electronic resource into a crackhouse of convoluted poppycock!!!
On to your inquiry regarding the Yoruba. As a Central Africanist, my interest in and knowledge of the Yoruba is VERY limited. Yoruba cultural contact with Bantu-speaking slaves in Brasil and the Caribbean would define the extent of my interest in that subject, so I'm no expert here..
Now with my own knowledge of the Yoruba so limited, would I not be rather foolish to post esoteric notices or make historical claims about things that I know so little of? Now I would happily direct you to some excellent and accurate resources on the Yoruba written by respected and experienced historians and social scientests who really KNOW this subject, and promise not waste your time with any (*^$# @ I just made up!!! You could start with William Bascom"s classic "Sixteen Cowries" or C. Daryll Forde's "The History of the Yoruba-speaking peoples of Southwestern Nigeria."
So when you speak of the "Spanish" slave trade, do you mean to Spain, or to the Caribbean, or to South America? Each one has a unique social history, and I could point you to some of the literature.



Saludos,



Berimbau

[franc]

Dear Berimbau,
hope all is well!! for me you and others can be master historian. you seem to have much knowledge about what you are writting about , 'cause i don't know a thing. thanks for your suggestions. iam interested in spain and the caribbean slave trade. thanks a lot! with much respect, franc

[Berimbau]

Dear Franc,
I'm quite certain that anyone growing up in the Caribbean would have a number of interesting and valuable things to post here, for this vital emic viewpoint is simply unobtainable by any non-Caribbean scholar. Such emic knowledge is absolutely essential to the understanding of our music and culture!!
Folks here like Z also possess a great reservoir of such local insider understanding, and as much as we respect that, I just wish he would post MORE of that first hand knowledge and much LESS of his tiresome conjecture. Now should one desire to be a scholar, one must first be familiar with the literature, and NO excuses for language skills, for most of the primary texts are published in Spanish and Portugese by scholars from those culture regions!!
So to anyone who thinks I'm being petty or pedandic, please consider this. Would you want some ignorant hippy refugee from a bad drum circle to start posting here on the finer points of clave? Well that's how I feel reading the epistomological pontifications on the trans-Atlantic slave trade that are being posted here. Hey, I'm smart enough to know not to try and fix my own car. Unless you are a mechanic, you shouldn't either!



Saludos,



Berimbau

[zaragemca]

The point is that regardless the magnitud of the trade,(involving a lot of different Tribes),that the westerner have some preference, (the facts is still there in South America, the Caribbean,and in Africa), where they politicaly divided some of the territories,and set up new/names and languages,(in the territory controlled by them.Dr. Zaragemca "Africans, on the other hand, were excellent workers: they often had experience of agriculture and keeping cattle, they were used to a tropical climate, resistant to tropical diseases, and they could be "worked very hard" on plantations or in mines".



m).Dr. Zaragemca



Edited By zaragemca on 1143766556

[zaragemca]

Trans-Atlantic imports by region
1450-1900
Region Number of slaves
accounted for %

Brazil 4,000,000 35.4
Spanish Empire 2,500,000 22.1
British West Indies 2,000,000 17.7
French West Indies 1,600,00 14.1
British North America and United States 500,000 4.4
Dutch West Indies 500,000 4.4
Danish West Indies 28,000 0.2
Europe (and Islands) 200,000 1.8

Total 11,328,000 100.0

Data derived from table II as presented in:
The Slave Trade
by Hugh Thomas
Simon and Schuster, 1997,
ISBN 0-68481063

[Berimbau]

Finally an actually citation from Dr. Z!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You Go Brother Z!!!!!!!!!!!!! YESSSS!!!!!!!



Saludos,



Berimbau

[zaragemca]

Saludos,you know you are always welcome.Dr. Zaragemca

[Berimbau]

Gotta love that Dr. Z!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Saludos,


Berimbau

[Facundo]

Amigos,
Now we're getting into areas where most posters here seem to have little valuable knowledge to share. Until someone actually cites something beyond bad bar room conjecture (now where in #### do you people drink, for God's sake?) I suggest reading a few PRIMARY texts on this subject:

1.) The Atlantic Slave Trade A Census by Phillip Curtin
2.) The Slave Trade by Hugh Thomas
3.) The African Slave Trade by Basil Davidson
4.) Black Cargoes by Mannix & Cowley
5.) The Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade by James Rawley
6.) Trade Relations between the Bight of Benin and Bahia by Pierre Verger

These are just a few of the better English language texts available from your local library or Amazon. I could go on and on and list some French, Spanish, or Portuguese books as well. Please have at least a VAGUE idea of what you are talking about before posting anymore *&^#$ on the slave trade here. Our music and culture deserve far better than that!!



Saludos,



Berimbau

Hey B and Doc Z,

Let me add some additonal historical internet sources for info on Africa.

The one below is called Africa Timelines and is the most comprehensive
that I have ever seen. Be sure to click on all 5 volumes to get the full picture. This is a historical treasure house!
http://web.cocc.edu/cagatucci/classes/hum211/timelines/htimeline.htm

The next showcases some important living scholars of the African asthetic. The works of Fukiau and R.F. Thomson are a must read.
http://www.seattleartmuseum.org/Exhibit/Archive/longsteps/fukiau.htm#

Best regards,
Facundo

[Facundo]

i need to clarify if this is true or not. in time of the slave trade. the music in the spanish colonies like cuba, p.r and so on was more vibrance and it had more rythmic feelings due to the conquest and influence of spain. the spanish music intruduced the element of improvisation and complex rythmns. the religious festivities gave the slaves oportunities to hear this music. this motivated the religions of the occidental africans and the catholics mixed or came together by a process called'' sincretismo'' i dont know how to traduce that word in spanish. i am not that articuleted in english, sorry!! spain and its language helped in this evolution of our great african music heritage. please am i correct in this accertments. thanks, aché to all :0 franc

Frac,

If I understand your question correctly, you are asking if the difference in the use of rhythm can be attributed to the respective slave holder's nationality? The answer would be a much qualified yes to that part of your question. You can not separate the resulting musical styles of enslaved African from the a host of social factors that also influenced the differences. Spanish and Portugese slave holders were not as interested in stamping out the various cultures of their slaves and the English. In other words the Latin and English had different slave management styles. The African's ablity to retain key aspects of their
religions and the associated music among the Latin slave holders is a major among others.

Where ever the enslaved Africans found themsleves in the western world they incororprated aspects of musical of the people they were exposed to and breathed new life into those elements using their own cultural asthetics. We see this time after time as we look at the types of music the Africans created in different places in the West. In the US there is the blues, Black gospal, Rhythm and Blues, Doo Wop and the most important musical creation for me Jazz. In places like Cuba, Puerto Rico and Brazil the Africans developed different stylings in their music. I think the difference in rhytmic developement can be attributed to two factors. One - The retention of the African's abiltiy to play "their" drums in a "sudo -African social construct" within the Latin slave colonies. Two - The percussive influence the Moors had on the music of old Spain and Portugal. It is not an issue of the Spanish introducing the element of improvisation to the Africans. They were already well familiar with both improvisation and complex rhythm. Acatually, the Africans in Latin colonies were able to further develope certain African elements already present in the music of their captors.

English colonies were a different story. With the absence of a retained drum tradition the rhythms were trasfered to other instraments using odd accent patterns and slick syncopations. This can be heard in most of the various genras of Black Diaspora music produced in the English colonies. An interesting observation was shared with me by a close friend who happens to be Yoruba, a musican and Babalawo that has his own jazz group in Europe. He noted how much John Coltrane's solos reminded him of Ifa recitations and chants! After paying closer attention he is absolutely right! I have heard the same connection in various Jazz and Cuban musicians. As they say in Spanish,"La sangre llama", the blood calls.

Hope this helps,
Facundo

[Berimbau]

Where as I don't disagree with anything Facundo is actually saying in his post, I do think that it is an oversimplification. Their are many historical reasons why African-American music developed so differently than the African-derived musics of Brasil and the Caribbean. Let me elaborate just a few.

1.) More important than the ethnic make up of the slave holders was the ethnic make up of the slave culture bearers. Bantu- speaking peoples from the Kongo/Angolan area of West Central Africa, including groups from FAR inside the interior seem to have been the majority in slave populations in ALL areas.
2.) Whereas Brasil and the Caribbean also received a staggering amount of slaves from the Gold Coast, that is from between the Bight of Benin and the Bight of Biafra, this was much LESS the case in the US trade.
3.) Conversely, the US received some 40-42% of their slave population from the Western Sudanic belt, including captives from as far inland as Mali. Drums are far less important than string instruments such as the halam and garaya, two African antecedants of our banjo.
4.) Other than South Carolina in the 18th century (see Peter Wood's excellent history, "Black Majority") the slave population of the US was always around 6% of the total overall population, a vastly different picture than in Brasil or the Caribbean. The current African population of the US is somewhere between 14-15%, depending on whose demographics you accept. This reperesents an impressive expansion in population, a phenomenology which only began after the Civil War.
5.) The legal slave trade ended in 1802 in the US, Philip Curtin estimating less than a few thousand illegal slaves being smuggled into the US per year up until 1865.
6.) Conversely, slavery in Cuba and Brasil didn't end until well into the 1880's, statistics suggesting that the African slave population was being replenished in those areas on an almost anual basis.
8.) In a recent conversation with the esteemed social scientest Gerhard Kubik, he illuminated how even outside of these demographics is the cultural reality that the contributions of even ONE culture-bearer from ANY region can create a musical tradition.
9.) But were African-derived drums completely absent in the US? Although as in the Caribbean, local slave codes banned their use, especially after the Stono Rebellion, overwhelming evidence suggests that their efficacy must be challenged. My current research suggests that was NOT the case, and that African-derived drums were found in Mississippi, Louisiana, Tennesssee, Alabama, Georgia, Virginia, and in the Carolinas. In Georgia, an African-American named James Collier was still carving African-derived peg-tuned drums into the 1930's.
Well as the old saying goes, "the truth just ain't been half told."
I imagine it will be sometime before it is.


Saludos,



Berimbau

[Berimbau]

Now in all fairness to Facundo, it occurs to me that even with both of our posts, we are still left with quite a simplification of some intensely complicated issues. The sound bite approach to trans-Atlantic musical history, exemplified through the use of maps with arrows pointing between Africa and the New World, is of little real value here. We need far more meat on the bones!!
Assumptions regarding the stability of African culture over long periods of time need to be abandoned, as well as the antiquated idea that any "ethnic" folk culture is somehow assembled by the collective. The reality is that contributions of a few creative INDIVIDUALS are what eventually becomes the "tradition" of the collective, not the other way around. So as difficult as the demographics of the slave trade may have appeared, it is also almost impossible to pinpoint factors of human agency. In the end it is human agency that creates music, and it still finds a way to do so even under the most horrible conditions, like slavery.
Now this is all just too much for an internet post. That is why researchers have spent years writing thousands of books on the subject with varying degrees of sucess. Agin, the truth ain't been half told...........yet.



Saludos,



Berimbau

[Facundo]

Berimbau,

We are absolutely on the same page. I knew when I wrote my last post that what I was saying didn't put a dent in such a very complex subject. I think it is important to note that many of the records that we draw our information from for those times were essentially "business" documents that recorded the flow of a "commodity" that was key in the production of other commdities found in the new world. The devistating physical, social,psychological and cultural consequences of the African were of little concern. Clearly greed blotted out all human concerns regarding the African. How the African was able to produce musical and other cultrual roses in a garbage can of horrific inhumanity is a mystery. This is at the core of what we are now trying to understand as it relates to the music we love. I think it is important to note that this crosses over many established academic disciplines. Also, the established models within these disciplines in many instances have to be challenged because being created on racist or euro-centric precepts. This is all very meaty stuff to explore and I am really enjoying your contributions to the discussion. Thanks!

Best regards,
Facundo