Mathew Smith Bongó

[blavonski]

For me personally, an instrument that is constructed of/with organic wood/s as in an acoustic bass, violin, cello, snare drum shell etc. are different then metal mouthpieces for horns, where as in wood/en instruments the type/s of glue, gluing techniques, clamping and steaming that are for me as well as by the maker (whoever it is) major factors that contribute to the pricing of those instruments.

Wynton Marsalis does not choose the lowest priced trumpet mouth piece he can find or is offered.
Ron Carter does not choose the lowest priced acoustic bass he can find or is offered.
Akua Dixon does not choose the lowest priced cello she can find or is offered.
The above instruments involve gluing, steaming, cutting, bending and....organic wood. [/i]

I understand and appreciate your personal point of view and references here Markito;
however, I do find your perspective to be based on extremes. You choose to make comparisons between what you refer to as Mass produced drums to custom produced drums. When in fact Caballballo raised the question of being able to purchase three moderately priced custom made Bongos for the price of one very highly or extravagantly priced Custom Bongó. I understand that you consider yourself an afficionado if not an authority of sorts in regards to Cuban Music, culture and it's drums and your website definately reveals your itimate relationship to that Culture and music. And although I respect and appreciate your perspective, I think that relationship creates a little proprietary bias on your part concerning M. Smiths productions of his interpretations of traditonal Cuban drums.

Among other things, I'm a wood worker and metal worker and if I had the machinery to cut, smooth and shape wood and metal to produce Bongos and Congas, I could be able to sell them for half of what he does and reap amodest and acceptable profit margin. Now you would probably respond that the quality may not be the same and I would say, yes it would; because if I can build a pair of Bongos with pure human energy hand driven tools at the level that I recently have, then certainly using machines, which I have experience with, would be a breeze and ten times faster of course. And as far as wood prices go, we're not talking a lot of wood for the exotic bongo shells here. Hand work craftmanship is one thing when your cutting, smoothing and shaping and assembling with hand, human energy tools than being able set up machines that do the work of hands. If M. Smith were producing his drums in the human energy driven manner, then I could understand his prices. But, who does or can do that anymore in our society and earn a modest living from it? I will be starting on a pair of Bongo shells for some one soon, out of the wood of their choice. And, I will be using the Techniques as I did before and am doing it for price that covers my time at a cost I can live with, because I enjoy the process. And someone will have a pair of Bongos, (shells), made of a wood that they have chosen with details and bearing edges that suites their playing style for less than mid to top line Meinl Or LP Bongos made in Thailand cost.
M. Smith is obviously also doing what he loves to do, make drums and money, and he has filled a niche with his drums that satisfy the mostly aesthetic desires of those who are willing to pay him for it. That's the bases of our Market driven economy. Ritmo drums is a brand name, albeit a comparatively small one, and like all other brand names, it has it's faithful followers that help to maintain it's esteemed place at the top of their list of what they deem to be the best. Also, due to this reputation his restoration and or repair services are also extravagantly priced. People send him drums from europe even to have reapeired because he's Mat Smith, not because a reputable and experienced carpenters or furniture builders and refinishers in there land couldn't do the work. That's the lure of a brand name.

As far as Saxophone mouth pieces: My reference was to Ligatures. However, mouthpieces for saxes and clarinets are made of Wood, Hard rubber and Metal all organic, elemental materials that all require the processes you mention above and then there's plastic. And the same merry go round of which is the best made by this crafts person or vintage company is also a characteristic with these products. Again you use extremes like lowest price vs most expensive. There is a middle ground, and whether one is forced by economics to choose it or not, is more likely than not the way to go. But, being able to make that decision requires information about a product; how it's made what It's made of etc. Most people are lured by cheap prices for quick fix or high price flash and status aquisition. When I use the term Status, I'm refering the position that the aquisition of any thing places one in relation to those that can't aquire a particular thing as well as to those that have what they have or want to have. Any one who collects things for there monetary or percieved market value is engaging in status thinking. I'm not judging it, just seeing it for what it is.

Good vibrations,
Blavonski

[FidelsEyeglasses]

Ron Carter does not choose the lowest priced acoustic bass he can find or is offered.
Akua Dixon does not choose the lowest priced cello she can find or is offered.
The above instruments involve gluing, steaming, cutting, bending and....organic wood.

I am fortunate to be able to base my point of reference on Vergara, Requena, Skin on Skin, Junior Tirado, Matt Smiths Ritmo, JCR, all of which I have actually seen in front of me, played or owned, the last three are generally easily found and seen in the area where I live, but in other countries and even on the west coast of the U.S. those brands are scarce and not 'commonly' found, so when many peoples points of reference are based on what's available to them whether being Tycoon/Mountain rhythm/CP/Toca/LP Aspire/Toca/Meinl/lower end Gon Bops/Pearl/Meinl "Free Ride"/Schalloch Linea/LP Durian Bongos/LP Galaxy or any "series".
Anything is better than nothing... but If the base of reference is limited to low to mid range drums both in price and materiels, then when someone see's a photo of a Matt Smith Spanish Ceder, or black Walnut drum priced accordingly, it's common and not surprising for some to think in terms of "stratospheric" or "simply and purely a status symbol purchase".

"And you know about those musicians for sure? Or are you just guessing?"

For sure, no guessing.... I've known Wynton since he was I teenager, I lived in in New Orleans from 1974-1986 and continue to know him as we both live in N.Y.C. and I know who makes his mouth pieces and sells them and they don't come from Sears.
Ron Carter, for sure, no guessing... I've known him for 25 years as well as played with him, I know where his bass's come from who made them and they are not from Musicians Friend or Guitar Center.
If you personally feel it's [inot practical sense to pay that amount of money for a bongo"
As far as you reading music, definitely an asset to any musician, keep in mind Mongo, Patato and Aguabella didn't read.

you are assuming too much and segmented phrases of whole lines of thinking

I like segmented phrases in 6/8.

Unfortunately, Fidel, it looks lie you are assuming too much and choosing segmented phrases of whole lines of thinking which takes it completely out of context. Incidentally, I don't have any of those "El Cheapo" brands you mentioned as references, but I understand your point. You can check my collection somewhere else in this forum. My referencece point is very high indeed as well as my experience playing and studying percussion. I read music and I can play a bongo partiture at first sight, but that's not the point here.

To begin with, those terms we have used to describe the price perception are highly SUBJECTIVE. That means that all of us are, in a certain manner, CORRECT. The respect any instrument deserve has nothing to do with the price, maker, brand or anything else. It's an intimate relationship between the instrument and the player, a thing, again, highly subjective and personal that nobody should argue about.

In my case, I don't see the need, nor the practical sense to pay that amount of money for a bongo. BUT that's me and I don't personally fit in any of the assumptions you made concerning "limited references", "pricing accordingly" etc... It's a matter of beign human. Again, if you feel buying a "costly" bongo makes you happy and you find the right motives to do so, well, by all means do it! If the rest of us choose to play a Timba or El Cheapo brand, that doesn't make us lesser musicians, or that we don't have the funds to buy one MS or mean that we are wrong.

So, at the end, nobody is wrong or right because it's a matter of perception and because of that, I don't see the need to continue this discussion. Thanks for a very healthy thread.

RUMBA!

[jorge]

Jay Bereck used to sell SOS oak congas for $325 each back in the 70s and early 80s. I asked him how long it took him to make a drum. He said he alone, working full time, could produce about one conga a week on average. With a helper he could make 2 in a week, maybe 3. I did the math and tried for years to convince him his prices were too low. His argument (against raising his prices) was that professional conga players would never pay what the drums were actually worth in time, effort and materials, not to mention expertise. He wanted to make drums for professional musicians who could actually play, not collectors, amateurs, posers or movie stars, and we all know professional conga players don't earn a whole lot even working full time. When I bought my second drum from him in 1985, his price was up to $375. We had the same discussion. I had a similar discussion with Junior some years later. Now, prices are about double that and inflation has made 1985 dollars worth a lot more than double what dollars are worth now. So my point is that no one is getting rich making congas by hand, and the current prices for hand made congas are still not very high relative to the cost of production (including materials, expertise, sweat, time, chroming costs, workshop rent, running the business, etc). I just helped my friend refinish 2 old hardwood Cuban congas, and refinished and re-skinned my old LP bongos, and it was a labor of love; my time and effort and monetary costs could never have been covered at market rate. So if you think any of these custom drum builders are making lots of profit producing congas or other wood drums by hand, do the math and try to make an argument. I just don't believe it, although I could be convinced if you come back with some real hard data.

[FidelsEyeglasses]

For me personally, an instrument that is constructed of/with organic wood/s as in an acoustic bass, violin, cello, snare drum shell etc. are different then metal mouthpieces for horns, where as in wood/en instruments the type/s of glue, gluing techniques, clamping and steaming that are for me as well as by the maker (whoever it is) major factors that contribute to the pricing of those instruments.

Wynton Marsalis does not choose the lowest priced trumpet mouth piece he can find or is offered.
Ron Carter does not choose the lowest priced acoustic bass he can find or is offered.
Akua Dixon does not choose the lowest priced cello she can find or is offered.
The above instruments involve gluing, steaming, cutting, bending and....organic wood. [/i]

I understand and appreciate your personal point of view and references here Markito;
however, I do find your perspective to be based on extremes. You choose to make comparisons between what you refer to as Mass produced drums to custom produced drums. When in fact Caballballo raised the question of being able to purchase three moderately priced custom made Bongos for the price of one very highly or extravagantly priced Custom Bongó. I understand that you consider yourself an officianado if not an athority of sorts in regards to Cuban Music, culture and it's drums and your website definately reveals your itimate relationship to that Culture and music. And although I respect and appreciate your perspective, I think that relationship creates a little proprietary bias on your part concerning M. Smiths productions of his interpretations of traditonal Cuban drums.

Among other things, I'm a wood worker and metal worker and if I had the machinery to cut, smooth and shape wood and metal to produce Bongos and Congas, I could be able to sell them for half of what he does and reap amodest and acceptable profit margin. Now you would probably respond that the quality may not be the same and I would say, yes it would; because if I can build a pair of Bongos with pure human energy hand driven tools at the level that I recently have, then certainly using machines, which I have experience with, would be a breeze and ten times faster of course. And as far as wood prices go, we're not talking a lot of wood for the exotic bongo shells here. Hand work craftmanship is one thing when your cutting, smoothing and shaping and assembling with hand, human energy tools than being able set up machines that do the work of hands. If M. Smith were producing his drums in the human energy driven manner, then I could understand his prices. But, who does or can do that anymore in our society and earn a modest living from it? I will be starting on a pair of Bongo shells for some one soon, out of the wood of their choice. And, I will be using the Techniques as I did before and am doing it for price that covers my time at a cost I can live with, because I enjoy the process. And someone will have a pair of Bongos, (shells), made of a wood that they have chosen with details and bearing edges that suites their playing style for less than mid to top line Meinl Or LP Bongos made in Thailand cost.
M. Smith is obviously also doing what he loves to do, make drums and money, and he has filled a niche with his drums that satisfy the mostly aesthetic desires of those who are willing to pay him for it. That's the bases of our Market driven economy. Ritmo drums is a brand name, albeit a comparatively small one, and like all other brand names, it has it's faithful followers that help to maintain it's esteemed place at the top of their list of what they deem to be the best. Also, due to this reputation his restoration and or repair services are also extravagantly priced. People send him drums from europe even to have reapeired because he's Mat Smith, not because a reputable and experienced carpenters or furniture builders and refinishers in there land couldn't do the work. That's the lure of a brand name.

As far as Saxophone mouth pieces: My reference was to Ligatures. However, mouthpieces for saxes and clarinets are made of Wood, Hard rubber and Metal all organic, elemental materials that all require the processes you mention above and then there's plastic. And the same merry go round of which is the best made by this crafts person or vintage company is also a characteristic with these products. Again you use extremes like lowest price vs most expensive. There is a middle ground, and whether one is forced by economics to choose it or not, is more likely than not the way to go. But, being able to make that decision requires information about a product; how it's made what It's made of etc. Most people are lured by cheap prices for quick fix or high price flash and status aquisition. When I use the term Status, I'm refering the position that the aquisition of any thing places one in relation to those that can't aquire a particular thing as well as to those that have what they have or want to have. Any one who collects things for there monetary or percieved market value is engaging in status thinking. I'm not judging it, just seeing it for what it is.

Good vibrations,
Blavonski

Just to be clear as to what I consider "mass" produced:
Mass produced = a company easily produces/makes 15 - 25 or more bongoes/congas per month and has no "waiting list".
As opposed to drum makers Jay Bereck or Matt Smith that produce "far less" then that in a months time and do have a "waiting list".
There is not an extreme perspective between those two.

If I or anyone else choose to purchase a pair of bongoes made with wood of "our choice", with a stain of "our choice", with a particular hardware style "of our choice" and we pay what the maker "we chose" charges to do that, that is called "custom made" as opposed to a "stock production" model where you are given only a few (if that) "stock production" choices of wood, a few "stock production" stains and a few "stock production" styles of hardware ie: gold-y tone/cum-fart curve or so called traditional Cuban style.

Some people seem to be confused with "custom made" vs "hand made" specifically when related to pricing.
Mr. Blavonski, whether you do or don't consider me any kind of "authority of sorts in regards to Cuban Music, culture and it's drums" or any kind of web site has absolutely nothing to do with those of us that think that a pair of bongoes made with Spanish Ceder, black Walnut, African Mahogany and that start at a particular price point is completely acceptable and is not a "a status symbol purchase".[i]

But for some folks to make "written in stone" statements: [i]"stratospheric", "insane price", "overpriced", "a status symbol purchase"[i] etc. shows a lack of something, I don't what to call it other than going into shock from perhaps never having experienced owning a custom made conga or pair bongoes that cost more that $200.00-$300.00-$400.00?
Mr. Blavonski could you kindly share with me what for you personally would consider to be a price for a pair of bongoes that at 1.00 more would be [i]overpriced and at 1.00 over would be "a status symbol purchase"?

To me a musical instrument is "too expensive" if someone simply can't afford the price, or alternatively the quality/fit/finish/materials and sound is absolutely not equitable to what you get for the price asked.

As far as "a knife the same as a bongo" sure all knifes are able to cut and a knife is not a drum.. but you missed the point, point being that 'Spyderco' produces (in mass) excellent "stock production" knives that are superb in every aspect including innovative designs and they run the gamut from low to mid to high in price points, as opposed to non "stock production" knives made by Bob Terzuola or Allen Elishewitz, some people prefer "stock production" others "custom" which use better materiel's, look better and perform better that's what buyers pay for.
But there will always be people that prefer a prison shiv or a sharpened vintage butter knife that works fine for them as opposed to something made by Bob Terzuola or Allen Elishewitz.
Just as someone may prefer a Meinl Percussion WB500AMB "Free Ride" Series "Woodcraft" Bongos, "Antique Mahogany Burst" (list $520.00 retail $329.99) opposed to bongoes made to someones exact specifications priced at $700.00 or above.

I have an older vintage pair of Requenas and an older pair of Zebra wood Lp's, I love them, they sound great and are in great condition they are a lot of fun to own and play, and neither is a [i]"a status symbol purchase"[i], but when I go to a pair of bongoes made by either Matt Smith, Jay Bereck and especially Natalio 'Junior' Tirado... well it's like apples to oranges in every aspect.
"A drum is a drum, is a drum" is not true in my experience, a finely made custom drum is like a fine violin, cello, viola or bass with the skin choice being like the strings that make the drum sing.
Some people prefer an affordable bike, others prefer a higher end bike in both materiel's and workmanship, though both get you to the same destination.

[blavonski]

Just to be clear as to what I consider "mass" produced:
Mass produced = a company easily produces/makes 15 - 25 or more bongoes/congas per month and has no "waiting list".
As opposed to drum makers Jay Bereck or Matt Smith that produce "far less" then that in a months time and do have a "waiting list".
There is not an extreme perspective between those two. I disagree with you here still.


Some people seem to be confused with "custom made" vs "hand made" specifically when related to pricing.
there's no confusion for me here. Something custom made can be either hand made or programmed into a machine and spat out in ten minutes. I think there's much confusion however regarding what's known as "Hand made" vs " Really Hand made" or as David Pye refers to it in his book "The Nature and Art of Workmanship", as[i] The workmanship of risk, vs that of certainty"[/i]

Mr. Blavonski, whether you do or don't consider me any kind of "authority of sorts in regards to Cuban Music, culture and it's drums" or any kind of web site has absolutely nothing to do with those of us that think that a pair of bongoes made with Spanish Ceder, black Walnut, African Mahogany and that start at a particular price point is completely acceptable and is not a "a status symbol purchase".[i] Well, I think it does considering that what you have praised about the work of Jay B and Mat Smith, is their mainting a Traditional Cuban aesthetik in regard to form in the building of thier drums.

But for some folks to make "written in stone" statements: [i]"stratospheric", "insane price", "overpriced", "a status symbol purchase"[i] etc. shows a lack of something, I don't what to call it other than going into shock from perhaps never having experienced owning a custom made conga or pair bongoes that cost more that $200.00-$300.00-$400.00? I don't think these adjectives show a lack of any kind on those including myself who have used them, it simply expresses their opinion, that greatly contrasts with yours.
Mr. Blavonski could you kindly share with me what for you personally would consider to be a price for a pair of bongoes that at 1.00 more would be [i]overpriced and at 1.00 over would be "a status symbol purchase"?
To me a musical instrument is "too expensive" if someone simply can't afford the price, or alternatively the quality/fit/finish/materials and sound is absolutely not equitable to what you get for the price asked.Or, I would add, said quality/fit/finish can be had for less

"A drum is a drum, is a drum" is not true in my experience, a finely made custom drum is like a fine violin, cello, viola or bass with the skin choice being like the strings that make the drum sing.I couldn't agree with you more here.
Some people prefer an affordable bike, others prefer a higher end bike in both materiel's and workmanship, though both get you to the same destination.Yes, so why buy the BMW when The VW will get you there and back in one peice for the same length of time? Well, for luxury and because one can afford it and it puts them in the same line as the other BMW owners. We're conditioned to want more than we need and likewise conditioned to work our asses off, slaving, voluntarily that is, in order to aquire it, and some just got it like that. Enjoy your drums.

[b]

Good Vibrations,
Mr. Blavonski

[pcastag]

Wow. I think good drums are awesome, if I could afford them, I'd buy them. I like matts drums, not my favorites though, pricey? Yes. Worth it? Of course, I don't think he's getting rich making them, I'm glad he is and I'm glad there are cats out there like him , jay and michel oulet in Canada still making bad ass handmade drums that you can gig. I don't see why people get so bent out of shape about this stuff, your technique, feel and musicality is what makes you a great musician, not the instrument. I don't even know why people argue that, it's common knowledge. Having said that I know that I much prefer playing on a set of sonor drums more than any other, they sound beter to me and I feel much more relaxed playing them because I know my sound is good. Same with a nice set of congas or bongos. If you don't want to pay 750 for a set of Matts then don't, buy what you like, play what you want. At the end of the day if you're getting called for gigs and making cake you're doing something right! If you're just sitting at home bitching about how much Matt's drums cost then you are just trolling.

[Madlatin]

This forum is a great place for members to post their opinions. After consulting a few forum members, I purchased a trio from Jay. I have Matadors, Old Gon Bops, Gios, DeLaporte and never would of thought that I would pay what I did for SOS drums. I don't regret it for a moment. Even though my Matadors with some great Confer skins sound the best to me. Have to say that the SOS are not played as much and the skins are still like new. Maybe my opinion will change later.
I have a small auto glass business. I can give a quote to two different people needing the same windshield. One will say that the price is great and the other will say that it's too much for a windshield. In 22 years of installing glass, I have had a few customers tell me "If I knew it was that easy, I would have done it myself" I tell them that I could have made the job look a lot harder if I wanted to. LOL
Also, I make custom leather holsters. Some are happy to pay 150 for a holster the way they want it and some say that they can buy one for half that cost at a gun shop. They sure can. And so can a couple thousand others buy that same holster. Kinda takes something away from "CUSTOM". Both will hold a gun, but being made by hand and made to order means something to my customers.
I have the equipment at home to make my own congas. I do plan on making myself a set to use and pass down to my grandson who can't resist playing my drums when he is over. After pricing everything out, it would be difficult to quit my job and make a living off of making congas. For those who are making custom congas for people who want, who can and are willing to pay you for the labor intense drums, keep up the good work and thank you for being there when I finally could afford to get mine.

[FidelsEyeglasses]

Just to be clear as to what I consider "mass" produced:
Mass produced = a company easily produces/makes 15 - 25 or more bongoes/congas per month and has no "waiting list".
As opposed to drum makers Jay Bereck or Matt Smith that produce "far less" then that in a months time and do have a "waiting list".
There is not an extreme perspective between those two.
I disagree with you here still.
I welcome healthy debate and I respect your opinion/s though I may not agree with some of them.

Some people seem to be confused with "custom made" vs "hand made" specifically when related to pricing.
There's no confusion for me here. Something custom made can be either hand made or programmed into a machine and spat out in ten minutes.
Just because someone pressed (touched) some buttons and programed a machine does not to me equate to "made by hand" if the machine did 99.9 % of the work then spat it out in 10 min.

I think there's much confusion however regarding what's known as "Hand made" vs " Really Hand made" or as David Pye refers to it in his book "The Nature and Art of Workmanship", as The workmanship of risk, vs that of certainty
Again, I refer to "custom made" vs "hand made"... not "Hand made" vs " Really Hand made".

So obviously we can debate the semantics of "custom made" vs "hand made" forever.
If I walk down a street somewhere in the Caribbean and a Woman (or Man) is selling maracas and/or Güiros on a table or sitting in the street selling them out of a bag or basket, and they made them, or a family member made them... for me, they are "hand made" not "custom" made.
But someone may say they were "custom made" for the tourist market, I call them "hand made" for tourists, not "custom" made for tourists.

Mr. Blavonski, whether you do or don't consider me any kind of "authority of sorts in regards to Cuban Music, culture and it's drums" or any kind of web site has absolutely nothing to do with those of us that think that a pair of bongoes made with Spanish Ceder, black Walnut, African Mahogany and that start at a particular price point is completely acceptable and is not a "a status symbol purchase".
Well, I think it does considering that what you have praised about the work of Jay B and Mat Smith, is their mainting a Traditional Cuban aesthetik in regard to form in the building of thier drums.

Someone need not be an authority re: Cuban Music, culture, by stating those two makers maintain a specific esthetic, which just happens to be Cuban.
Adding some kind of rubber and metal "floating" block between two bongoes is far from any so called Cuban esthetic.


But for some folks to make "written in stone" statements: "stratospheric", "insane price", "overpriced", "a status symbol purchase" etc. shows a lack of something, I don't what to call it other than going into shock from perhaps never having experienced owning a custom made conga or pair of bongoes that cost more that $200.00-$300.00-$400.00?
I don't think these adjectives show a lack of any kind on those including myself who have used them, it simply expresses their opinion, that greatly contrasts with yours.

As I agree that someone is entitled to a personal opinion re: pricing as well as what they choose/like/prefer to play, I don't agree with with someone stating flat out that those prices are "stratospheric", "insane", "overpriced", "a status symbol purchase" which basically tells me they give no validity to purchasing and owning a higher end musical instrument.
You seem to relate to saxophones/horns, a novice or intermediate player or student buys a horn they can comfortably afford, there then comes a time where they become a proficient excellent Jazz/Latin/rock/classical player.... and they then buy a higher end horn which 99.9% of the time is not from a flea market or a pawn shop.

Mr. Blavonski could you kindly share with me what for you personally would consider to be a price for a pair of bongoes that at 1.00 more would be overpriced and at 1.00 over would be "a status symbol purchase"?
To me a musical instrument is "too expensive" if someone simply can't afford the price, or alternatively the quality/fit/finish/materials and sound is absolutely not equitable to what you get for the price asked.
Or, I would add, said quality/fit/finish can be had for less.
"a musical instrument is "too expensive" if someone simply can't afford the price"
I agree with you on that.
"Or alternatively the quality/fit/finish/materials and sound is absolutely not equitable to what you get for the price asked."
I'm wondering since you have both seen and played Matts bongoes if you feel that the "the quality/fit/finish/materials and sound is absolutely not equitable to what you get for the price asked" ?
"Or, I would add, said quality/fit/finish can be had for less"
I'm always learning, can you show me or recommend bongoes that are on par with Matts quality/fit/finish/materials for half the price Matt or Jay charges?.
(current pricing, not from the 1980's-90's)


"A drum is a drum, is a drum" is not true in my experience, a finely made custom drum is like a fine violin, cello, viola or bass with the skin choice being like the strings that make the drum sing.
I couldn't agree with you more here.
Cool.. lets shake hands

Some people prefer an affordable bike, others prefer a higher end bike in both materiel's and workmanship, though both get you to the same destination.
Yes, so why buy the BMW when The VW will get you there and back in one peice for the same length of time?
Ummm... because I can afford it, the sound system is superior, and it came will all the "custom" extras I asked for and paid for..
Well, for luxury and because one can afford it and it puts them in the same line as the other BMW owners. We're conditioned to want more than we need and likewise conditioned to work our asses off, slaving, voluntarily that is, in order to aquire it, and some just got it like that. Enjoy your drums.


Good Vibrations,
Mr. Blavonski

[blavonski]

[quote="FidelsEyeglasses"]

Some people seem to be confused with "custom made" vs "hand made" specifically when related to pricing.
There's no confusion for me here. Something custom made can be either hand made or programmed into a machine and spat out in ten minutes.

Again, I refer to "custom made" vs "hand made"... not "Hand made" vs " Really Hand made".

So obviously we can debate the semantics of "custom made" vs "hand made" forever.
If I walk down a street somewhere in the Caribbean and a Woman (or Man) is selling maracas and/or Güiros on a table or sitting in the street selling them out of a bag or basket, and they made them, or a family member made them... for me, they are "hand made" not "custom" made.
But someone may say they were "custom made" for the tourist market, I call them "hand made" for tourists, not "custom" made for tourists.

This is not about semantics here Markito, it's about being able to, from an empirical perspective, differentiate between Custom and or so called Hand Made objects.And frankly, the two cannot be compared, because they are disperate designations that may or may not find themselves wedded to one thing. Much in the way that Apples and oranges can't be compared, they're two different fruites.But we can however compare Granny Smiths to macintosh or more topical, what is generally refered to has Hand Made and that which is more authentically Hand Made or simpy made with more hand involved and less Maschine. But, that's too much at this point to go into at the moment.
Custom made is a thing either made by hand, To whatever degree, or a Machine that is made to the individual specs and design of the person paying for it. It is to be distinquished from the manner in which it is produced. Your website is customed designed, but it's maschine produced not by hand so to speak as apposed to you publishing having a physical, paper magazine for example. Liscense Plates are custom made and stamped out before your eyes. I could request from your charming maracas Producers that I would like a pair with my name on it with Swarovski Beads set into the handle and pay them for it and it would be a custom made Maraca, made by their hands. If you give it some serious thought, I think that you can understand the point I'm making.
I think I've made myself clear on all other points here, no need to beat a dead Bongó.
Thanks for the level headed and mature exchange.

[El Magnifico]

....and we have posted many ideas and blah,blah,blah but we forgot to mention the most important thing in any drum: the SKYN! Yeah,take your $800.00 set and put it on some shitty skins and you'll see what happen. The Skyn is what gives you the sound and everytime you change it, the charasteristics, sound and "character" of your bongo change with it no matter if it is made out of oak, mahogany or mango tree. Now, with the plastic heads en vogue, this situation is easier but for those of us who's been in this field for many years know that in the past the skyn selection were even more critical than the bongo itself! During the 70's, when Oscar D' Leon was making inroads with his orchestra and we started hearing those skyns from Venezuela, everything changed. By that time the only synthetic skin available was the infamous chest X-Ray film that some people installed in their macho, but this was limited to amateurs. I don't remember any pro playing with it, nor any recording either. It was considered a sacrilege to do so in the professional arena. Who could imagine decades later that the plastics would become a kind of standard among the new bongoceros.

You could say that the wood this or the drum size that and it's also correct, but the skyn is what get in contact with your hands and make your bongo sing. My combination is a conga head on the hembra and a Remo or Evans in the macho, except for my 3A who came with thick skyns on both drums. How many of you remember tuning your bongo just before the show started and seeing your macho split from the ring! The new plastics has made everything easier. The new cats has been so accostumed to these heads that for them it's almost impossible to play with real cueros! Months ago we were working a jig and a bongosero asked me to play one tune. After he finished he told me : Holy shit! Those fucking cueros were killing my hands!.

Everything changes. That's the way it is.

RUMBA !

[Mike]

Indeed, my eyes have gone weary from reading all this wordy stuff here

After 6 hours rehearsal with my pupil´s percussion group I am just glad my ears have survived

And like El Magnifico I do think as well that skins make all the difference - and the hands that play them.

[FidelsEyeglasses]

....and we have posted many ideas and blah,blah,blah but we forgot to mention the most important thing in any drum: the SKYN! Yeah,take your $800.00 set and put it on some shitty skins and you'll see what happen. The Skyn is what gives you the sound and everytime you change it, the charasteristics, sound and "character" of your bongo change with it no matter if it is made out of oak, mahogany or mango tree. Now, with the plastic heads en vogue, this situation is easier but for those of us who's been in this field for many years know that in the past the skyn selection were even more critical than the bongo itself! During the 70's, when Oscar D' Leon was making inroads with his orchestra and we started hearing those skyns from Venezuela, everything changed. By that time the only synthetic skin available was the infamous chest X-Ray film that some people installed in their macho, but this was limited to amateurs. I don't remember any pro playing with it, nor any recording either. It was considered a sacrilege to do so in the professional arena. Who could imagine decades later that the plastics would become a kind of standard among the new bongoceros.

You could say that the wood this or the drum size that and it's also correct, but the skyn is what get in contact with your hands and make your bongo sing. My combination is a conga head on the hembra and a Remo or Evans in the macho, except for my 3A who came with thick skyns on both drums. How many of you remember tuning your bongo just before the show started and seeing your macho split from the ring! The new plastics has made everything easier. The new cats has been so accostumed to these heads that for them it's almost impossible to play with real cueros! Months ago we were working a jig and a bongosero asked me to play one tune. After he finished he told me : Holy shit! Those fucking cueros were killing my hands!.

Everything changes. That's the way it is.

RUMBA !

"By that time the only synthetic skin available was the infamous chest X-Ray film that some people installed in their macho, but this was limited to amateurs. I don't remember any pro playing with it, nor any recording either. It was considered a sacrilege to do so in the professional arena."

Manny Oquendo used Em-Ray heads (original X-Ray heads that were made by Emedin Rivera) on many live gigs, there are videos on Y.T. showing him doing so.
In the past, I have used a Blue Em-Ray head in very humid and noisy environments as they are loud and don't need to be re-tuned between songs or sets, tune them once and they stay right where they were left at.
Em-Ray's were 3 ply.

"the infamous chest X-Ray film that some people installed in their macho"

The definition of the word "infamous" means: "well known for some bad quality"... real Em-Ray heads were not bad quality, it was the poor imitations of them made by people that didn't know how to make them and only used 1 ply that sounded like crap.

Manny Oquendo (not an amateur) using a Blue Em-Ray (X-ray) head en vivo, not committing a "sacrilege".
http://youtu.be/ObNZGNN_BB8

Yours truly using an Em-Ray head down in the subway, N.Y.C. 1990's
http://youtu.be/sVw0B9PTz-g

"Yeah,take your $800.00 set and put it on some shitty skins and you'll see what happen. The Skyn is what gives you the sound and everytime you change it, the charasteristics, sound and "character" of your bongo change with it no matter if it is made out of oak, mahogany or mango tree."

On drums the choice of skins are no doubt definitely a major factor in "quality of sound" and whether it will tear your skin (Bull vs Cow), though someone can put the best skin they like on a garbage can... and it will still sound like what it is.
I'll choose real skin/cuero over synthetic materiel any day, however in certain environments especially when very humid or raining, I'll choose an Em-Ray.
No hay "blah,blah,blah" aqui on my part... solo intelligent discourse.

[caballoballo]

Manny Oquendo, one of the greatest Bongocero, Timbalero,Bandleader, Musician. Always liked him because of his way of soloing, he simply spoke with the bongó or timbal, nothing too fancy (puro golpe).

[blavonski]

Nice playing Markito.
Sad thing with the flute player. NYC is rough on bike riders. I was a Bike messenger for "Sprint" in Manhattan from 1987-89, it was dangerous for cyclelist then and obviously still is.

[El Magnifico]

"By that time the only synthetic skin available was the infamous chest X-Ray film that some people installed in their macho, but this was limited to amateurs. I don't remember any pro playing with it, nor any recording either. It was considered a sacrilege to do so in the professional arena."

Manny Oquendo used Em-Ray heads (original X-Ray heads that were made by Emedin Rivera) on many live gigs, there are videos on Y.T. showing him doing so.
In the past, I have used a Blue Em-Ray head in very humid and noisy environments as they are loud and don't need to be re-tuned between songs or sets, tune them once and they stay right where they were left at.
Em-Ray's were 3 ply.

Exactly!, but I'm not talking about those made by Emedin Medina's. I'm talking about the still infamous chest x-ray film that was a pain in the ass to mount on the bongo and sounded like a tin can. The one you are playing is a totally different story. It's a shame that it weren't available here in the island during the 70's & 80's.

"the infamous chest X-Ray film that some people installed in their macho"

The definition of the word "infamous" means: "well known for some bad quality"... real Em-Ray heads were not bad quality, it was the poor imitations of them made by people that didn't know how to make them and only used 1 ply that sounded like crap.

I know very well what infamous means my friend without the need of a Webster's. I didn't went to college to solely brush my hair, and I don't use words that I don't know the meaning of... In PR you never saw a pro player using plastics perhaps because we didn't know about those you mentioned. The only style that those "placas de pecho" were widely used was in the Música Jíbara or in the church. Not in Salsa. No way José. Only real cueros were used.

"Yeah,take your $800.00 set and put it on some shitty skins and you'll see what happen. The Skyn is what gives you the sound and everytime you change it, the charasteristics, sound and "character" of your bongo change with it no matter if it is made out of oak, mahogany or mango tree."

[color=#4000FF]On drums the choice of skins are no doubt definitely a major factor in "quality of sound" and whether it will tear your skin (Bull vs Cow), though someone can put the best skin they like on a garbage can... and it will still sound like what it is.
I'll choose real skin/cuero over synthetic materiel any day, however in certain environments especially when very humid or raining, I'll choose an Em-Ray.
No hay "blah,blah,blah" aqui on my part... solo intelligent discourse.[/quote]

I'm sure that if you properly tuned that trash can, it could sound like a Brazillian Surdo or something similar. Do you know what the best pailas were made of? You'll be surprised! And by the way; when I make an exposition here, I'm talking in general and to the people involved in a discussion as a whole, me included. If you felt alluded by the "blah,blah,blah" I'm sorry. About the "intelligent discourse" that's something subjective. I would rather use "research", "study", etc... to avoid getting in subjective areas. What is an intelligent talk for me, not necessarily it means the same to you. I do like the sound of the film you use, though.

One final remark for your benefit if you wish: I noticed your martillo style. I use to do it the same way...until I played with Pablito Rosario. He invited me to his home next weekend in order to teach me some techniques and the first thing he corrected me was the martillo. "Never lift your left hand from the macho. Do you lift the left hand from the conga making the "vaqueteo" while playing? NO, because it's part of the compass and when you lift your left hand, a lot of sound is left out". And he went on and taught me why...All I can say is that because of his lessons, my martillo and sound improved 100%! After 30 years playing this instrument, it only took me 15 minutes to improve my technique, martillo and sound. When we think that we know everything, we are just opening the door to stupidity and mediocrity. I don't suffer from ego shit, thanks God, and because of that I learn everyday. That day, I just shut my mouth, listened to maestro Rosario and today I'm a better bongocero. That's what counts. I also polished my reading skills with him. Definitely one of the most complete musicians and a definitive authority in latin percussion.