Folkloric player seeks resource/advice on going Popular

[guarachon63]

I am actually quite comfortable with that advice, but at the moment I just don't always know which marcha to play. Even if I'm not looking to be in the limelight, I still need to know (don't I?) which marcha is good for the beginning, which for the Montuno, which for the solo/mambo section, etc.

Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but I think between the basic bolero and son/mambo patterns, you should be able to cover just about everything. It's my understanding that the timbale player is really the one who's under the gun in these settings. Just hold the groove. I going to go out on a limb here and say that even playing the mambo pattern in a chart designated "songo" would be forgivable in most circumstances.

saludos!
barry

[Thomas Altmann]

Assaf, Barry and group,

I think we have to discern styles from rhythms. There have been pieces specified as Guaguancó that had a normal tumbao del Son going along with it, because they were played by Son bands (or Salsa bands, respectively). In this case, Guaguancó described the style, not the rhythm, and what congueros were playing, was their fundamental ride pattern, generally referred to as the tumbao (although there are many tumbaos). Since the tumbao has become to be regarded as the standard conga ride pattern, it is really the basis, and point of departure, for everything including Songo, as Barry remarked. The modifications and variations that you apply are what may point to a specific style, but that's the chapter for tomorrow. Traditional Latin musicians want to hear a marcha with a good sound and a solid time with not too many escapades. That's the conga players job and virtue, first and foremost.

Don't worry too much about variations, don't put that stress on you. Just play your part and let the other guys care for that. The arrangement will do the job, and the way you put the sets together; avoiding to play two numbers with the same tempo one after another. This refers to standard work, no progressive avantgarde jazz fusion whatever.

If you have the folkloric stuff down, you can apply your quinto and caja skills and gradually try to figure out how to transfer it to a double conga set. There is no better school for soloing. If you want to go Giovanni, take the next step, but folklore is the best foundation there is, in my opinion.

That said, I recall that in the 80's, the basic repertory of rhythms that gave me a start was:

"Tumbao" (Son, Guajira, Guaracha, Mambo, Cha-Cha-Chá),
Bomba (Sicá),
Guaguancó,
Bolero,
Pachanga "A Caballo",
6/8 Bembe.

After that you may explore Danzón, Songo, Plena ...

Of course, if your band is concentrating on Cumbias and Merengues, you better practice that pretty much.

I second the advice to LISTEN.

Thomas

[Garvin]

Great post Thomas, I was waiting for you to chime in here. Thanks for illuminating the point relating to "Guaguanco" in salsa... I kind of always wondered how people mean to use that term in different styles like this.

[Tonio]

Good replies from everyone so far.
Not sure if it was brought up, but the one thing that I didn't see mentioned was the bands instrumentation. Meaning what instruments are involved? Will ther be a bonbocero, timbalero and you on congas only?

Also, since you are already in rehearsal you should at least have a set of "charts" to work with. Being in rehearsal means there should have been some type pow wow as to what the band would want to accomplish. That should entail the tunes, and how close to the cahrt you will be working. Is it strict to the chart, or is the band going to add your own "flavor"?
With adding your own flovor, each tune should go through a process of of who's soloing, and how the instrumentation is going to be performed. Its a process that needs both going throught the tune and working out verbally what you are striving for.
That working process should bring up questions from you and the other band members to help each other to fine tune the direction of the "band" and performance repetoire. Using the previous information brought up by other members here will help you in getting to questions of what you can offer to the band, and wht the other members will want from you.
This also helps in building comaradre (sp?) within the band.
I'm with JC and Garvin in certian aspects. Sometimes you just have to wing it and find what fits. If it don't work, and you stuble-hey thats the way it goes, you learn from that. But getting some points down with the band should get you closer.

There are certian rules so to speak about Salsa in general. In a cha cha/son tune, the pattern does change on the mambo/montuno sections. Alot of times on the mona section too. It really depends on the tune itself many times, or how it is presented (performed) by the band.

It may help to let us know what tunes (if any) you have complied.

T

[ralph]

Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but I think between the basic bolero and son/mambo patterns, you should be able to cover just about everything. It's my understanding that the timbale player is really the one who's under the gun in these settings. Just hold the groove. I going to go out on a limb here and say that even playing the mambo pattern in a chart designated "songo" would be forgivable in most circumstances.

saludos!
barry

Barry I see what you are saying, and while it wouldn't sound as funky to play straight marcha on a songo, one can probably get away with it, more than the timbale player could without playing the standard bell/block/bombo rhythm...although on songo, i do believe that the tumbao plays as big a role as the timbal, but i see what you are saying....i also agree with your assessment on mambo, dance, popular music, the timbal plays a major role, it marks the 1, does all the breaks, and really sets the tempo, a conguero in this instance really just needs to be marcando a good time and rhythm and support the underlying groove...

[Assaf]

Folks, this is all great advice. Really. You've helped me understand more of what's expected of me, and yesterday at 2nd rehearsal I was much more confident and relaxed and just played the standard patterns solidly right through and focussed on getting the changes right, ie A,B etc.

Toni, lots to think about in your post. I'm not sure if your questions were rhetorical. Would you like me to respond as to our instrumentation, tunes and intention?

[Tonio]

Toni, lots to think about in your post. I'm not sure if your questions were rhetorical. Would you like me to respond as to our instrumentation, tunes and intention?

Assaf,
My questions were not rhetorical,and should have crossed your mind no? But its up to you if you want to elaborate the important details. IMO, those questions I posed should be brought up if you or the band are serious. Each musician or band has its own way of workiing out the details to come to a point of competance. Could be all out serious for professional level , on the other hand could be just a jamming level. We don't know what level your band is at.
Congaboard is a good place to talk about this stuff, which I think does not happen deep enough. It seems casual in many situations. Musicians are a funny animal. We keep studying and practicing. but when it comes to the details each of us has our own way of communicating. Some are closed minded, some are open.
Hopefully I'm not getting too philisophical

I think we all can benefit from those questions. I must admit I'm always up for learning - and I don't claim to know everything. PLus there is always a different way to approach things.
At least with the bands instrumentation, we should get a better idea what your role is before just making suggestions out of the blue.
With the tunes, we may have a better idea how to approach them.
With the intentions, we can gather the level of expertise some folks here can interject.
I can't claim to be able to answer all the issues, and I'm sure many others could.
Its a learning process, or we wouldn't be here.

Tony

[Assaf]

Hey Tony

We have talked about those things in the band and I'm happy to share. I asked if the questions were rhetorical because I thought maybe you were just stressing to me the importance of addressing those issues, rather than actually offering to hear my responses and advise me further. Also, I could see this getting long and detailed, and I wasn't sure if you really wanted to go there. But since you are willing then I'd be very happy to hear what you (and anyone) have to say on these matters and many thanks in advance.

So:
Instrumentation:
Piano, Contra Base, Trumpet, Congas (me), Bata. We might add a singer. There's no intention to add more percussion.

Tunes:
I can't tell you much other than names. I am not familiar with much of this music and for the moment I just sit down and play a tumbao from beginning to end (including appropriate variations for A,B etc) at whatever tempo is suggested. The charts come from The Latin Real Book. So far we've looked at tunes called: Obsessión, Little Sunflower, Tin Tin Deo, Solamente Una Vez and I'll Remember April.

Experience of the musicians:
-The pianist and basist are in their 40s, have been playing professionally for many years and are very adept. The trumpeter is younger but also professional from a young age. These are the guys who have the experience and know the music, though I think they haven't played Latin Jazz etc for some time and are keen to get back into it.
-The percussion section come from a folkloric and less experienced background. Although we are adept at our instruments we're not at the same level as the piano, base or trumpet. We have less playing experience in general, and very little with popular cuban music.
-The Batalero is 26 and is now beginning a career in music. He was previously playing various middle eastern percussion and a couple of years ago spent a year in cuba learning Bata.
-Me, the conguero, I have previously described. 34, with about 8 years on the congas and almost no previous musical experience. My conga playing only really took off once I first went to cuba 5 years ago. I am not a professional musician, I have another career, but I am serious about playing and do practice. I'm no master, and not very fancy, but I play well. This is the first time I am playing with professional and experienced working musicians. This is a 'step up' for me, and so far I think they are happy.

Band Intention:
We've only met twice, so it's early days and the intention is still developing. It's to be a working/paying band. And we're saying things like 'Latin Jazz' or 'fusion'. We're beginning with standards and sticking fairly close to the charts, but that's really just for the short term in order to get going and as a way of getting to know each other etc. We sometimes do a bolero at double time, or play in 6/8 instead of the chart's 4/4. It should be obvious from the slightly unusual percussion that we're looking for a different sound from absolute straight chart obediance, and that there is freedom to find something new. We realise, of course, that we're not the first people to put Bata and Congas together. The idea is that although Bata + Congas is not the normal percussion arrangement, they should nevertheless be able to create an appropriate groove to support, with base, the piano and trumpet.

One significant issue at the moment is the percussion, and the Bata in particular I suppose, as we don't really know what to do with them yet. The short term intention is that if it's a Son (for example), then we will play Son and stick quite close to the chart, but the Batalero with try to find something that compliments (tricky). Congas + Bata is a lot of similar percussion and at the moment the congas have always struck up an appropriate tumbao while the Batalero searches for something that works. This makes my job quite easy and the Bata's job more difficult. We might try it the other way round sometimes or look for other ways of building the rhythm section.

My Personal Intention:
I am just happy to be playing regularly with quality individuals who are serious about making something that works. I am following rather than leading, though I do pitch in regularly. I am enjoying being tested by the effort to play for extended periods of time, often at faster tempo than I am used to, and having to keep good time while the trumpet, base and piano go nuts and do complicated stuff that could easily throw me. I enjoy the feeling of providing a good base that enables the other musicians to feel free enough to solo etc, and I like being in amongst the music. And I would like to do all that for an audience, and that the audience would dance, or at least smile, listen, tap their feet and clap at the end. That is enough for me.


Hope that wasn't too much detail, and that I haven't bored you or other members
And I hope you will find some useful suggestions to make.
Thanks

[Tonio]

Assaf,

good info bro!!.

So, it looks like it will be a challenging however could be a kick ass combo !! It goes to say by your experience level description of the members, you and the batalero are cut out having to be strong. Generally you may need to look at the pianist and bassist to lean on occaisonally for timing issues. In essence I see the trumpet , piano doing the melody obviously, with some soloing. Maybe an occasioal bass solo. When the pianist goes to a ssolo, you, the batalero will be tested to keep it strong with the bassist.

You bring up the batalero in this scenario which can offer some challenges, but with some creative mindset you guys should be able to pull it off. I learned the fundamental repetoire w/ bata. I did get through the oru seko on onkonkolo. but had to stop for reasons I will not share. Though I know basically what a batalero in a folkloric sense, I wouldn't know how to translate into modern scenarios. Maybe some more experinced folks here could help in that.
I will say, that the batalero may need to change from normal patterns to create a sort of mimicing of other instruments i.e. bells, or pulses in general. I think it can help to make things more open in the rhythm section and not get too busy. Or maybe he can pick up the bell instead of bata too.

As far as the tunes, I am familiar with most of them . Let me check them out with your band's instrumentation in mind and get back to you.
Funny you mentined Obsecion, I was up unitl recently in a band named Obsecion Latina. The main "tune" was Obsecion.

T

[Tonio]

ok, went over my sources on the tunes.

What can I say other than : I bet the trumpet player and pianist suggested the tunes? And MAYBe you and the batalero suggested Tin Tin Deo? I see a relationship in the tunes, that we cann get to later.

My observations:
Obsecion (ILRB-in Lan real Book) Listed a bolero. In the band I was in, we played the body as a son. Piano intro and "sped up feel" for the rest. Its pretty much straight through out, other than the intro, so a bolero (traditioinal) could be used. Or the rhythm sectin can change it up to a son or mambo.

Little Sunflower In the real book , not ILRB- Is listed as 4/4, and I have played it many o time in swing.Son, mambo or even cha cha guajira would work. Or you can use soca, calyspo, which the melody movement tends to go for. Just don't let them go swing LOL

Tin Tin Deo-ILRB is listed as afro. You might want to talk it through w/ the batalero since afro is an adaptation from bata patterns, which I don't know which one in specific. You may know the basic afro patter for congas, so you may be stepping over the bata. So I would suggest working with the batalero to see what you can do for support there. maybe some members here can sugest on that issue. Its kinda like the issue when say a mambo is played and yu have a drum kit player playing the open tones of the tumbao with his toms ! I hate that !!
The song traditionally goes into a swung section 2nd half of part B premepted by a break on measure 4 of the B section.

Solamente Una Vez-ILRB listed a bolero. Do you see the relationship coming in? More later on that. Even though listed as bolero, I've heard this song played alot in a son or guaracha. Its basically a bolero, and suggest to change it up to a son or guaracha on the B sections orsolo section. Maybe prior to coda-double it up .

I'll remember April not ILRB and in the real book. I think this tune tends to go to a bolero feel, see the relationship again? It is 4/4, so same scenario as before.

All tunes do not really have any breaks or drastic movements in the tunes sans Tin Tin deo with 1 break(4th measure in the B section). So the rhythm section should be straight forward pretty much. For the creative part with bata involved, you should work with him to see what works best. I would suggest you keeping the pulse and steady patterns, and let the bata keep it simple, yet have some interjections of light riffs here and there. This is where your experience can help, but you need some jazz improvisation mentality for it to work. It could sound great, or fall apart or just be too busy. Should be a great opportunity for you to grow out of the folkloric mindset you have which Garvin was impying along the lines of JC's(and mine) just go for it sense. I think if the bass, piano and trumpet players are willing to let you and the batalero (and if you are capable) change patterns here and there-depending on the tune sections, it should be great. reminder tip: that if you change patterns on say B section, when solos goes around you have to play that changed pattern again in the B section. You 2 need to be consitant in that you pull it off. It should sound great.

Based on the bands instrumentation, the tunes tends to go for a meandering melody, and the supporting rhythm section could get boring. so to support the melody and make it great , the rhythm section needs to emphasize the movement of tune format(parts) without getting in the way of the melody. i.e. The melody can move from part A to part B, yet the rythm section just continues. Some transitions need a feel for when the parts change, and some transitions need drastic statements for a interesting feel. I think thats where the difference will come for the band, then just running through a pattern from beginning to end. Don't forget the ending. The ending can make as big a statement as the whole tune itself.

IMO these tunes are not for dancing, Ok maybe slow dancing. But I tend to think it would be more in the fusion. latin, jazz idom. Could be alot of fun, and I hope you do . Don't let the piano ot trumpet dictate too much- take charge to make it better-double it up sometimes, experiment with creating breaks.

Hope that helps

T

[Assaf]

Wow, that's grrrrrrreat Tony.
I'll have to read that again a few times and have a think about your suggestions.
I'll be off line for a while now though, as I'm going on holiday for a couple of weeks.
Thanks very much for all that.
Assaf