Stave Glues

[dende]

So many people swear by Titebond 3. im open to returning to it, but i and many luthiers ive had conversations with find it never sets up 100%, it always stays a little elastic which obviously has some pros and cons. the cons, it is that i believe the gummyness absorbs soundwaves, slightly deadening the sound- the pro, it allows for better absorption of shock, resulting in a more hardy instrument, both rooted in absorption.
I currently use Titebond 1, where it cures super ridged, but it may be less stable when dropped.
asfor the weather proofing, the lacquer protects well enough a spilt drink will not split a glue joint.
What are everyone's thoughts on the glues actual effect on strength and sound? and what about epoxies and Gorilla glues?

[jorge]

Very interesting question. I did not know about the difference in hardness between Titebond 1 and Titebond 3. The oldest oak SOS congas I have have cracked between the staves due to yearly expansion and shrinkage from humidity changes. The glue is very hard and inflexible, although I don't think it is Titebond.

Your luthier friends are rightfully concerned about the rigidity of glue joints in violins, guitars, lutes and other stringed instruments that radiate their sound largely from the wood bodies of the instruments. A semi flexible glue could reduce the structural rigidity of the body of the instrument and could affect the sound. Congas mainly radiate sound from the skin and from the opening in the bottom, the main resonance is the air column inside the drum. The walls of the conga contribute much less to the sound of the instrument (especially what you hear at a distance) than the wood body of a guitar or violin contributes to the sound of that instrument. So the rigidity of the conga shell is less of an issue.

I don't think slight flexibility of the stave joints from Titebond 3 would adversely affect the sound of the conga. The only piece of evidence I have to support this is indirect. I made a tres dos cajon using Titebond 3 to glue the playing surface on the top. The walls of the cajon are light 1/2" plywood and the sound of the tone depends to a moderate degree on the wood playing surface vibrating the wood sides of the cajon, which do vibrate to the touch when you hit the tone. The vibration is transmitted very well to the sides, the cajon tone sounds good, and not "dead" as it would sound if I had used rubber cement or other very flexible glue. I have not used Titebond 1 in another cajon to compare.

Actually, in a conga I would think that a slightly flexible bond might even reduce the tendency of the stave joints to crack with expansion and contraction from annual humidity variations. All of those glues are stronger than the actual wood, and when cracks happen it is usually the wood next to the glue joint that gives, not the glue itself. So Titebond 3 might even be preferable to the more rigid Titebond 1. If you are building drums and you need to know for sure, it would be best to ask a drum maker who really has experience with how different glues hold up years later, and whether they affect the sound of the conga.

[Psych1]

Very interesting post! I believe the correct answer is "It depends."

TB3 is a great glue but not for all cracks. Fine hairline cracks may need a penetrating glue, when there is some wood lost, an expanding glue or epoxy might be a better choice.

Agree with everything Jorge said above about sound.

[KevBo]

I agree. I build djembes and have used Titebond for years. I switched from Titebond 2 extended set to Titebond 3 and after the Gallon was up I went back to the extended set Titebond 2. I didn't notice any difference in quality of the bond and have had no troubles with the drums, but did find the TB3 to be thicker and the glue run offs always seemed rubbery. TB2 extended set is not as readily available as TB2 or TB3, but it sure does come in handy with a big glue up!!

I also discovered this little thing called the GlueBot. I almost like the glue up phase now!

[KevBo]

I actually did a little article on glues on my drum building blog... can I post links to personal stuff here??
Whelp.. here it is http://www.rhythmhousedrums.com/blog/2012/01/24/its-a-sticky-situation-what-glue-to-use/

I touch on PU glues (gorilla glue) and PVA (Elmer's, TB, etc.)

I dont mention anything about CA glues (superglue) or structural epoxy. I use all of these in different situations. Always epoxy for crack filling. Structural epoxy has a high tensile strength, so can fill gaps and add rigidity back to the drum. CA is good for small hairlines that are still tight. CA glues can be had in different viscosity, from thinner than water to a thicker gel.

For joints that are nice and tight, edge grain or face grain - Most woodworkers go with TiteBond 2.

[congalou]

Hey ! Shure, interesting post here !!!

I have use a lot of glues and use TB3 now.

Usual vinil glue (SADER) : don't like the humidity, reversible (that's not good for drum). Don't transmit well the vibes.

PU glue : solid, good for the sound, but it's a real s..t to use, it incrusted in your skin, not good at all...

TB3 : Easy to use, solid, waterproof, irreversible, transmit well the vibes.

But, guys, the most important thing I can say for a good glueing : staves must fit PERFECTLY !!!

G.

[bongosnotbombs]

I prefer Titebond 2 over Titebond 3.

[jorge]

Why?

[bongosnotbombs]

A couple of repairs I made failed with the Titebond 3. I think for reasons mention before, it's kind of gummy. I think the Titebond 2 cures better and works better for congas because of what the instrument endured while playing.

I think the waterproof quality of Titebond 3 has something to do with it.

Anyways, I've had repairs fail with Titebond 3 that when 're' repaired with Titebond 2 didn't.

Not conclusive evidence of anything really, but I use Titebond 2 now and it works fine.

[dende]

ive been pondering on this for quite a while, thankyou so much for your responses. quite helpful.

[jorge]

A couple of repairs I made failed with the Titebond 3. I think for reasons mention before, it's kind of gummy. I think the Titebond 2 cures better and works better for congas because of what the instrument endured while playing.
I think the waterproof quality of Titebond 3 has something to do with it.
Anyways, I've had repairs fail with Titebond 3 that when 're' repaired with Titebond 2 didn't.
Not conclusive evidence of anything really, but I use Titebond 2 now and it works fine.

Thanks BNB for sharing your experience. Almost everything is a trade-off, and if the waterproof feature of Titebond 3 makes the glue less strong than Titebond 2, the strength is a higher priority than the waterproof feature for our application repairing or making congas. If we were making boats, it would be a different priority.
Anyone else have experience comparing Titebond 3 with Titebond 2?

[KevBo]

Something else I could mention. TB 2 is 'weather proof' meaning it's fine in humidity changes and will stand up to the occasional "oops, I thought it wasn't supposed to rain today". Actually, I have a old powwow shell that didn't work out and I used TB 2. It's been in my backyard (woods) for about 4 years and a few weeks ago I went out and tugged at the joints.. I ended up taking a bat to it. It broke, but not at the glue joint. TB 3 is not meant for drums. It is waterproof... and good for submersion. Its best uses is for that specific purpose. No need for a drum builder to use a glue designed for the application of being submersed in water.

I've seen tests done (though not done by myself) that Titebond out performs gorilla glue with a side grain glue up like is used for drums. gorilla glue only excelled in the tests done where end-grain was involved.

Titebond also makes CA glues in different viscosity. superior glues (and expensive) I keep a small bottle of each for fills and hairlines.