By the way, technically speaking, the three 12/8 patterns and the three 4/4 patterns mentioned here are all in duple meter. They consist of two cells, divided into two main beats each. All the patterns have four main beats. It’s their pulses (subdivisions) that are either triple or duple (quadruple).
Structurally speaking, it is exactly as I described above, no more no less. If you are referring to the EFFECT of the clave or bell, their significance in the music, or all the things they intimate by the very nature of their archetypal structures, then of course, I agree that they go far beyond that. Their structures have cognates in harmony, architecture, nature and metaphysical concepts.
The relationship of the three to the two is profound. I don’t see it as limiting. I mean, Pythagoras was both a philosopher as well as a mathematician and wasn’t there a whole religion established upon his teachings? Joseph Campbell said that the three is the universal number of transcendence and "whenever one moves out of the transcendent one comes into a field of opposites [two]".
I don’t mean to minimize the significance of this music by breaking it down to its fundamental ratios. I can break harmony down to its fundamental ratios too: 3:2 is the perfect fifth and 4:3 is the perfect forth, but is Mozart’s art really just a matter of math? …
I’m just talking rhythmic ratios here because the topic of this thread is "6/8 Clave Permutations". Permutations of what rhythmic principles?
I’m not sure if you are saying that the seven-stroke pattern is older than the five-stroke pattern. In his article "The Standard Pattern in Yoruba Music" (1960), Anthony King called the 12/8 son clave pattern the standard and the seven-stroke pattern an embellished variant. In his article "The Clave: Cornerstone of Cuban Music" (1983), John Santos stated the opposite view that the seven-stroke pattern was the original and the five-stroke pattern is a simplified variant. Neither King nor Santos offered any evidence supporting the idea that one pattern was historically older than the other was. I’m not aware of any evidence for either argument.
The 4/4 version of the seven-stroke bell pattern:
X..X..XX..X.X..X
contains both the 4/4 son clave and rumba clave.
Ritmo Afro:
x--xx-x-x-x-x---
And similar to the Ogun bata rhythm.
I took it as gospel too, but it is a very Cuba-centric, even a popular music-centric view with absolutely no proof.
There’s a related myth that’s often repeated – that the 4/4 clave-based music in Cuba resulted from the 12/8 rhythms conforming to European (4/4) sensibilities. Neither of these speculations takes into account the myriad bell patterns in Africa.
... the old way in whch Havana guaguanco was played - segundo on three-side, w/ son clave.
You would think a Cuban scholar would be interested in listening to some examples of African music.
The problem for us is that the change occurred right at the time when the very first folkloric rumba records were released. That happened to be the very brief period where the segundo was played on both sides of clave and both the "son" and rumba clave patterns were used. Within a few years, the structure was codified in its present form.
Older rumberos from Havana and Matanzas have stated that a CHANGE occurred during the 1950’s. ... According to Jose Madera (former music director for Tito Puente), the older guys who grew up with segundo on the three-side, like Tito, Machito and Mario Bauza considered the segundo on the three-side approach the ONLY correct way.
There seems to be two different rhythmic motifs that are the basis for each way. If the rhythm is based on a "son clave"-typle motif (three-side w/ a two-side) like the last movement of Osain:
I--i--i-o-o---i-
I = iya enu
i = itotele enu
o = okonkolo enu
... (and those rhythms I mentioned from Brazil and West Africa), there’s a stroke on beat 1.
However, this tendency is not borne out in the segundo-on-the-3-side with "son" clave arrangement of gauguanco ...
... I did notice though on the Carlos Embale guaguanco, the quinto played on beat 4 (last stroke of clave) quite a few times. That’s not a typical emphasis of rumba quinto, but it’s not enough to include that piece into the category I’m describing.
Did he talk about rumba in that article?
Are you referring to when you play quinto, in which case I think your way would be:
|- - - -| - - - - |- - - -|O - - -|
except when you played it here:
|- - - -| - - - - |- - - O|- - - -|
In the clave direction? I don’t think of it as being in 3-2, because the whole 3-2, 2-3 concept and terminology doesn’t apply to folkloric music ...
Are you talking about guarapachangeo? I’m just talking about the fundamental drum melody – the open tones.
You mentioned the quinto, so I was referring to quinto playing. However, the note that you marked is not always played as an open tone. But the rhythmic distinction that you depicted here is exactly what I meant.
My quinto "ride" covers the following notes (using your above notation method - clave 3/2):
|- X- -|- - - X|- - - -|X - - -|
I vary the sounds constantly (therefore I wrote X's) and also play two strokes instead of one and so on. That's basic, and I think it's common, too - except for most people playing my last X one position earlier, in the way you wrote it above.
In the clave direction? I don’t think of it as being in 3-2, because the whole 3-2, 2-3 concept and terminology doesn’t apply to folkloric music ...
Say what? You are surprising me, David. Where do you think that whole clave concern comes from? Cuban folklore and religious music is the foundation of clave consciousness, and in the examples you gave, my interpretation of them being notated in 3/2 is standard, I think. Plus: You might get a hard time trying to draw a clear line between folklore music and popular dance music (or whatever you want to delimit folklore from). The Iyesá rhythmic complex (particularly the caja) was certainly one of the foundations for the rhythmic territory for bombo variations in the Conga Habanera; the same influence, however can be found in a modern tumbadora accompaniment:
Iyesa caja:
|- - - O|- - X -|- O - O|- - X -|
Bombo variation (Conga Habanera):
|X - - O|- - X -|- X - O|- - X -|
Modern tumbadora pattern:
|- - x -|- - o o|- O - O|- - o o|
Although the clave is not played in Iyesá, because it is Cinquillo-related; if we wanted to superimpose a clave orientation to this pattern, it would be 2/3 in the order I notated it. The same clave orientation refers to the other two examples.
But, for example, would you say that Conga Habanera is less folkloric than Iyesá? There you have clave. You have clave in Abakuá rhythm ("Bianko"), in Lukumi songs, everywhere. Clave direction is paramount for every akpwón. So -
I was taught to do this by ET, one of our resident "experts" who has been to Cuba several times. He says to learn to play the "ride" this way (last note on the 4) because you don't want to hit on top of the second note played on the tres dos when someone is playing the Havana style.
Then, you can go back to Jesus Alfonso's signature ride, when it's played with the one tone on the three ala Matanzas.
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