in or out of clave
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by percomat » Thu Jun 17, 2004 1:40 pm
i cant help noticing the continuos remarks about playing "in clave". is it possible for anyone to go further into these two words, what it in real playing means? is it the same as playing good? i would like an example or something on a case which is "not in clave". its about feel, of course, but is it really about the clave-figure?
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by Firebrand » Thu Jun 17, 2004 2:57 pm
Unfortunately, this is one of those things that you have to learn by playing and "feeling" rather than "knowing". Some pointers, though.
Try playing a style (cascara, rumba, etc.) with clave 3-2, and then try clave 2-3. Also try Cuban clave 3-2 and 2-3. See which one seems to fit and groove best. Usually, that's the right one.
Another way I tend to figure out claves is to see the interplay between the bass "swing" grooves and the clave. In salsa tunes (or jibaro-tipico tunes, or bomba, etc.) play bass styles that are "swingy", "anticipated", or "not on the beat" (such as in Plena or Merengue). It depends on the bass player too, but, think Bobby Valentin: nice, long, legatto, swing bass grooves. Now, if you are playing these ancipated, legatto beats on the bass, the question you should ask yourself is: are the bass beats landing on with the clave that you are playing.
Try it. Start playing a 3-2 clave, counting on 4/4. Play along with a bassist (or listen to the bassist, if it is a recording). If the clave you are playing seems to be landing too straight with the bass player's swing grooves, you may be playing the clave backward. Try 2-3 instead. If that one seems to "interlock" in the spaces "between" the bass's swing grooves, that is most likely the clave that is correct.
Sometimes, claves are hard to discern, because both may sound good. In those cases, listening to the interplay between bass, piano, congas, timbales, etc. may help you locate the clave. Listen to where the cascara patterns on Timbale are playing. listen to the Conguero's placement of open tones and slap/muted tones. Listen to the emphasis of the piano player (is he emphasizing the first part of the measure, or the second). And, of course, listen to the bassist's grooves.
That's the best advice I can offer. Remember....the clave should flow, interlock, weave back and forth, and groove with the song, NOT LAND WITH THE BEAT. The best way to see this is to watch a Cuban rumba, the way the dancers weave to the conguero's alternation between open tones and muted tones. The way the clave "flows and interlocks" with the percussion pattern, rather than fit on the beat, like in rock, funk, plena, or merengue styles. Finally, listen to a LOT of Latin Music. Your body will sort of "get adjusted" to the music's structure, and you will begin to "feel" the clave.
Hope that helps!
Try playing a style (cascara, rumba, etc.) with clave 3-2, and then try clave 2-3. Also try Cuban clave 3-2 and 2-3. See which one seems to fit and groove best. Usually, that's the right one.
Another way I tend to figure out claves is to see the interplay between the bass "swing" grooves and the clave. In salsa tunes (or jibaro-tipico tunes, or bomba, etc.) play bass styles that are "swingy", "anticipated", or "not on the beat" (such as in Plena or Merengue). It depends on the bass player too, but, think Bobby Valentin: nice, long, legatto, swing bass grooves. Now, if you are playing these ancipated, legatto beats on the bass, the question you should ask yourself is: are the bass beats landing on with the clave that you are playing.
Try it. Start playing a 3-2 clave, counting on 4/4. Play along with a bassist (or listen to the bassist, if it is a recording). If the clave you are playing seems to be landing too straight with the bass player's swing grooves, you may be playing the clave backward. Try 2-3 instead. If that one seems to "interlock" in the spaces "between" the bass's swing grooves, that is most likely the clave that is correct.
Sometimes, claves are hard to discern, because both may sound good. In those cases, listening to the interplay between bass, piano, congas, timbales, etc. may help you locate the clave. Listen to where the cascara patterns on Timbale are playing. listen to the Conguero's placement of open tones and slap/muted tones. Listen to the emphasis of the piano player (is he emphasizing the first part of the measure, or the second). And, of course, listen to the bassist's grooves.
That's the best advice I can offer. Remember....the clave should flow, interlock, weave back and forth, and groove with the song, NOT LAND WITH THE BEAT. The best way to see this is to watch a Cuban rumba, the way the dancers weave to the conguero's alternation between open tones and muted tones. The way the clave "flows and interlocks" with the percussion pattern, rather than fit on the beat, like in rock, funk, plena, or merengue styles. Finally, listen to a LOT of Latin Music. Your body will sort of "get adjusted" to the music's structure, and you will begin to "feel" the clave.
Hope that helps!
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by vaconguero » Thu Jun 17, 2004 4:29 pm
Firebrand gave you a wonderful answer, and if I remember back correctly, it's probably a little intimidating to you, too. All this becomes effortless and instantaneous with time, and, I would add, with LISTENING. I don't just mean popping in a CD, but listening to the same CD until you know every tune. It's easier to start more traditional and/or slower and then move on to the more modern rhythms, but whatever you do, pick music you like, listen to it as much as you can take, and find clave from the different bell patterns and instrument phrasing that you recognize, and play along with it (just clave, no other instruments). Once you can play clave with every tune on one or two discs, move on to more, but keep hearing and playing clave (or singing it, snapping it, clapping it, clicking your teeth, whatever) until it's second nature. From here you will start to recognize how the other instruments fit into clave, as Firebrand described to you, but you will just know, you won't have to think about it. If you get very frustrated on songs where there is no clave or bell patterns that explicitly state where clave is, I'd reccommend Rebecca Mauleon's book "Salsa Guidebook" (http://www.shermusic.com), but only to get you to the point where you can find it on your own. Rebecca's book is very well written, but using sheet music and written descriptions is a bit like walking with a crutch - it'll help you get around and prevent injuries, but it won't help you grow or improve if you rely on it forever.
My thoughts.
Lee
Edited By vaconguero on 1087489847
My thoughts.
Lee
Edited By vaconguero on 1087489847
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by Raymond » Thu Jun 17, 2004 7:13 pm
Good answers about it. When you are not in clave? When you are playing a pattern or "phrase" or in the case of the "brass" that is in sync wih the "3 part of the clave" and it actuality you should be in the "2 part of the clave." As simple as that. Confused! Easier said than done...ah! But in essence is that...
CLAVE is actually a feel. Also, is two sticks that are used to play the "CLAVE" pattern.
All afro-cuban rhythms are based on the CLAVE pattern. For those familiar with "recording lingo" is like a "clip track" to guide you with the "speed" and patterns you must be playing that are in sync and harmony of what is been played.
In 4/4, the clave is in two bars that are constantly repeating themselves throughout the whole "arrangement". (Clave starting with the three part of the clave in 4/4 is quarter note, eighth note, quarter note silence, quarter note, silence quarter note, quarter note, quarter note, silence of quarter note). The arrangement could start with the two of the clave or the three. Therefore you will see people tell you is 2/3 or 3/2 of the clave. To make things complicated there is a clave rumba that all it does is replace the quarter note in the "three bar" with an eighth note.
Is a matter of appreciation and feel ...When you feel uncomfortable or it feels like what is been played is sort "not in sync with the clave" (remember 3 and 2 parts), is when people say you are "out of clave." All sorts of factors come into the arranger making a decision on what "clave" to execute the song...The "singing part" is perhaps the most important one which should be the basis because the "emphasis" in the singing must be in clave, etc etc. In instrumental songs it will be the "piano" playing or the brass intro....There are some "bass or piano" "guageos" or patterns that are standard and are in certain clave.
The percussion is subject to the feel big time...The timbalero is the most affected because the cascara and "bell playing" patterns are in two bars in sync with the clave. The conga "standard only one conga" tumbao and bongo "martillo" are played in one bars and always fall in clave. However, when the "conguero" plays the two conga tumbao, normally played in the chorus or "mambos" of the song, those must be in clave.
Like Firebrand says you could try to keep up with somebody that is "right in clave" in the rhythm section but I believe you have to be able to keep up and you be able to maintain the clave. (If you follow somebody who is out of clave, you will go out of clave yourself too)!
With some of us that have been exposed for so long to it "feeling it" feels natural for some it takes awhile. For a percussionist, the singer, the bass and the piano will help guide you in "confusing times".
If you give us an example of a "popular song" we could perhaps guide you in the clave to show you "how it goes."
Hopefully, you are not confused. An example will help you...(Give us one...we'll tell you).
Saludos!
CLAVE is actually a feel. Also, is two sticks that are used to play the "CLAVE" pattern.
All afro-cuban rhythms are based on the CLAVE pattern. For those familiar with "recording lingo" is like a "clip track" to guide you with the "speed" and patterns you must be playing that are in sync and harmony of what is been played.
In 4/4, the clave is in two bars that are constantly repeating themselves throughout the whole "arrangement". (Clave starting with the three part of the clave in 4/4 is quarter note, eighth note, quarter note silence, quarter note, silence quarter note, quarter note, quarter note, silence of quarter note). The arrangement could start with the two of the clave or the three. Therefore you will see people tell you is 2/3 or 3/2 of the clave. To make things complicated there is a clave rumba that all it does is replace the quarter note in the "three bar" with an eighth note.
Is a matter of appreciation and feel ...When you feel uncomfortable or it feels like what is been played is sort "not in sync with the clave" (remember 3 and 2 parts), is when people say you are "out of clave." All sorts of factors come into the arranger making a decision on what "clave" to execute the song...The "singing part" is perhaps the most important one which should be the basis because the "emphasis" in the singing must be in clave, etc etc. In instrumental songs it will be the "piano" playing or the brass intro....There are some "bass or piano" "guageos" or patterns that are standard and are in certain clave.
The percussion is subject to the feel big time...The timbalero is the most affected because the cascara and "bell playing" patterns are in two bars in sync with the clave. The conga "standard only one conga" tumbao and bongo "martillo" are played in one bars and always fall in clave. However, when the "conguero" plays the two conga tumbao, normally played in the chorus or "mambos" of the song, those must be in clave.
Like Firebrand says you could try to keep up with somebody that is "right in clave" in the rhythm section but I believe you have to be able to keep up and you be able to maintain the clave. (If you follow somebody who is out of clave, you will go out of clave yourself too)!
With some of us that have been exposed for so long to it "feeling it" feels natural for some it takes awhile. For a percussionist, the singer, the bass and the piano will help guide you in "confusing times".
If you give us an example of a "popular song" we could perhaps guide you in the clave to show you "how it goes."
Hopefully, you are not confused. An example will help you...(Give us one...we'll tell you).
Saludos!
- Raymond
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by Mr. Furley » Thu Jun 17, 2004 9:48 pm
The conga "standard only one conga" tumbao and bongo "martillo" are played in one bars and always fall in clave. However, when the "conguero" plays the two conga tumbao, normally played in the chorus or "mambos" of the song, those must be in clave.
Could someone explain what it means for the tumbao to "fall in clave"?
I know the standard one conga tumbao and I know, say for example the 3/2 son clave. They sound great when played together (the actual claves playing the clave pattern along with the conga playing the tumbao), BUT...how are they related? What makes the tumbao "in clave" ???!!!
Please help
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by Raymond » Fri Jun 18, 2004 1:17 pm
The basic conga tumbao of one conga, since is only one bar, is OK on any side of the clave, 2 or 3 When two congas are used, the basic two conga tumbao, when you hit the second conga, you are in the 2 of the clave. However, there are people who play it in the 3 and some people say is out clave.
What makes something in clave is the emphasis of the beats of the instruments that must be in harmony with the emphasis of the clave beats.
Out of clave, musically, is when you are playing a beat or phrase that the emphasis is not harmony with the emphasis of the clave. Like I mentioned before, for example, when you are playing something in harmony with the "3 beat bar" of the clave and the arrangement/song, as well as everybody else, is playing phrases or beats with emphasis of the "2 beat bar" of the clave.
Is not easy to explain...Hopefully this helps and/or somebody comes with something easier....
Saludos!
What makes something in clave is the emphasis of the beats of the instruments that must be in harmony with the emphasis of the clave beats.
Out of clave, musically, is when you are playing a beat or phrase that the emphasis is not harmony with the emphasis of the clave. Like I mentioned before, for example, when you are playing something in harmony with the "3 beat bar" of the clave and the arrangement/song, as well as everybody else, is playing phrases or beats with emphasis of the "2 beat bar" of the clave.
Is not easy to explain...Hopefully this helps and/or somebody comes with something easier....
Saludos!
- Raymond
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by Johnny Conga » Fri Jun 18, 2004 5:32 pm
When playing 2 congas, the low drum(tumbadora) is always hit on the 3 side of the clave. so if the tune is in 3/2 clave you go immediatley to the low drum with the tumbao pattern,on the 3 side. Try playing this the opposite way and you will feel the "clash" with the clave. then you will learn to feel the clave and where it should be in your playing...hope this helps clear it up a bit for ya....JC JOHNNY CONGA...
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by congastu » Fri Jun 18, 2004 7:58 pm
On the subject of clave in songs you like, Ive noticed that ALL my favourite [son] tunes are in 2-3. For that matter, if im leading the percussion section in, Ill nearly always bring people in that way round [as our timbalero was ribbing me about the other day]. To me it just feels more deep and soulful, while the more cheesy stuff seems to have that 3-2 flavour. Any other thoughts on this one?
Also, there seem to be a lot of bass lines which just accent the second two beats of the three side on a loop- can we take these kind of patterns as nuetral, so to speak?
Also, also [!!!], I understand that when soloing the timbales must always be in clave, but Ive never really thought about conga solo phrases in that light, past making sure that when you come out of the phrase youre in the same clave you started with, and never putting a strong clave riff as part of the solo on the wrong side. Is this too simplistic?
Peace and love stu
Also, there seem to be a lot of bass lines which just accent the second two beats of the three side on a loop- can we take these kind of patterns as nuetral, so to speak?
Also, also [!!!], I understand that when soloing the timbales must always be in clave, but Ive never really thought about conga solo phrases in that light, past making sure that when you come out of the phrase youre in the same clave you started with, and never putting a strong clave riff as part of the solo on the wrong side. Is this too simplistic?
Peace and love stu
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by congastu » Fri Jun 18, 2004 8:18 pm
Just to clarify, I suppose what I mean is that if the conga solo is hearing and feeling the melodies of the other instruments, then if they are all locked, you will be too, hence making that sense of clave subliminal rather than consciously forcing it [and perhaps even making it unnatural because youre too on top of it].
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by Mr. Furley » Fri Jun 18, 2004 8:33 pm
All right. This is great. JC says
I'm trying to figure out where this clash occurs: if you hit the tumba (low drum) on the 3 side of the clave, then the second note of the 3 part of the clave occurs when the first open tone on the tumba occurs, right (the both fall on the 'and' of '2 and')?
On the other hand, if you hit the tumba on the 2 side of the clave ("wrong way"), then the clave occurs on the 2nd open tone on the tumba, right? In what sense is this "wrong"? Does it just simply not feel right, to say experienced congueros?
What "principle" is being violated here? If it just boils down to "feel", then how can there can be a right or wrong way.
Edited By Mr. Furley on 1087590835
When playing 2 congas, the low drum(tumbadora) is always hit on the 3 side of the clave. so if the tune is in 3/2 clave you go immediatley to the low drum with the tumbao pattern,on the 3 side. Try playing this the opposite way and you will feel the "clash" with the clave.
I'm trying to figure out where this clash occurs: if you hit the tumba (low drum) on the 3 side of the clave, then the second note of the 3 part of the clave occurs when the first open tone on the tumba occurs, right (the both fall on the 'and' of '2 and')?
On the other hand, if you hit the tumba on the 2 side of the clave ("wrong way"), then the clave occurs on the 2nd open tone on the tumba, right? In what sense is this "wrong"? Does it just simply not feel right, to say experienced congueros?
What "principle" is being violated here? If it just boils down to "feel", then how can there can be a right or wrong way.
Edited By Mr. Furley on 1087590835
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by Raymond » Fri Jun 18, 2004 8:50 pm
JC thanks for correcting me "two conga", hitting the low one, is on three. Remember that conga notation is pure eigth notes..tatatatatatatata.. What variates is the drums.
On the thought about 2/3 been the favorite way to arrange, it is because is more comfortable specially if you have stops or breaks. Haven't anybody noticed that when a singing part or chorus starts in 3 usually the "first beat" most likely there is a silence or stop. Also, it is very weird the feeling for the bell players, timbalero and bongo bell, to start in 3. There is always a feeling of hesitation because the start is weird. (Timbaleros hate to start the 3/2 bell player because it feels like "crashing" or colliding with the bongosero bell. Most timbaleros start in the third beat of the first bar of the 3/2 "bell playing" or the same with the "cascareo". Also, timbaleros like to play with bongoseros that start right away on the 1 beat of the 3 part of the clave... Unskilled campaneros hesitate and do not get it and there is a possiblity to feel "out of clave")....
Check it out but having something start in 2/3 gives a little break to be "free" because of the silence in the 2 part....It is more relaxed. The three part has more beat to emphasize and their could be a feeling of "hustling things up." (Tito Puente "Cuando Te Vea" has a pick up of the brass and the rhythm starts with 2 of the clave. If the "pick up" is before the 2 part then it must be a 3. It is more comfortable to start in the 2 than start with the brass on the 3...Interesting)!
This is an interesting subject.....
Saludos!
On the thought about 2/3 been the favorite way to arrange, it is because is more comfortable specially if you have stops or breaks. Haven't anybody noticed that when a singing part or chorus starts in 3 usually the "first beat" most likely there is a silence or stop. Also, it is very weird the feeling for the bell players, timbalero and bongo bell, to start in 3. There is always a feeling of hesitation because the start is weird. (Timbaleros hate to start the 3/2 bell player because it feels like "crashing" or colliding with the bongosero bell. Most timbaleros start in the third beat of the first bar of the 3/2 "bell playing" or the same with the "cascareo". Also, timbaleros like to play with bongoseros that start right away on the 1 beat of the 3 part of the clave... Unskilled campaneros hesitate and do not get it and there is a possiblity to feel "out of clave")....
Check it out but having something start in 2/3 gives a little break to be "free" because of the silence in the 2 part....It is more relaxed. The three part has more beat to emphasize and their could be a feeling of "hustling things up." (Tito Puente "Cuando Te Vea" has a pick up of the brass and the rhythm starts with 2 of the clave. If the "pick up" is before the 2 part then it must be a 3. It is more comfortable to start in the 2 than start with the brass on the 3...Interesting)!
This is an interesting subject.....
Saludos!
- Raymond
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by Mr. Furley » Fri Jun 18, 2004 9:07 pm
JC thanks for correcting me "two conga", hitting the low one, is on three. Remember that conga notation is pure eigth notes..tatatatatatatata.. What variates is the drums.
I thought the basic two conga tumbao for salsa or mambo finds the two open tones on the low drum on "and three" (assuming you're on the 3 side of the clave).
HTS**TOO where * = open tone on low drum
Is this correct?
Edited By Mr. Furley on 1087593025
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by congastu » Fri Jun 18, 2004 10:31 pm
Thanks for expressing that so well, Raymond.
You got me thinking, and I noticed that a lot of my pickups and variations come off the second beat of the three side- "hustling it up" as you say. In 3-2, that doesnt sit so comfortably [ especially as I probably sit a bit behind the beat] as you feel like youre cluttering things up so the whole feel is more tense and self conscious- yep, 2-3 definately "breathes" a lot more.
In fact, Ive just been going through some old Baretto and Mongo recordings and its nearly all that way round, so maybe I just dont listen to enough the other way. [Theres even a few where it starts off 3-2 , but reverses when the percussion gets more serious!]
As far as the tumba goes, Mr Furley, what Raymond meant was the beats of "and 3" are on the 3 side of the clave, so your notation was correct! Basically youre coming together with the clave to emphasise the "2and" and then letting the rhythms weave their merry ways again!
stu
You got me thinking, and I noticed that a lot of my pickups and variations come off the second beat of the three side- "hustling it up" as you say. In 3-2, that doesnt sit so comfortably [ especially as I probably sit a bit behind the beat] as you feel like youre cluttering things up so the whole feel is more tense and self conscious- yep, 2-3 definately "breathes" a lot more.
In fact, Ive just been going through some old Baretto and Mongo recordings and its nearly all that way round, so maybe I just dont listen to enough the other way. [Theres even a few where it starts off 3-2 , but reverses when the percussion gets more serious!]
As far as the tumba goes, Mr Furley, what Raymond meant was the beats of "and 3" are on the 3 side of the clave, so your notation was correct! Basically youre coming together with the clave to emphasise the "2and" and then letting the rhythms weave their merry ways again!
stu
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by Fish » Sat Jun 19, 2004 12:03 am
Check it out but having something start in 2/3 gives a little break to be "free" because of the silence in the 2 part....It is more relaxed. The three part has more beat to emphasize and their could be a feeling of "hustling things up."
Yeah, the conductor of my Latin Jazz group was explaining a while ago that the fundamental musical principle of tension and release is present in the clave. The 3 side being the more rhythmically complex (its the only time when the clave falls on an offbeat) and as such usually containing more syncopated figures while the 2 side contrasts with this, containing simpler figures, and releases the tension built up in the 3. I'd never thought about it before but it sounds right to me and previous posts seem to agree.
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