Playing with Drummers - What should they play?

[CongaTick]

(Can't spell worth a damn this morning )

[TONE74]

Yeah maybe this wasn't a good example on my part but this type of timba is heavy on drum set and thats how it goes, my goal was to show that it can be done at any level. There are different parts to the music and on other parts the conga shines more. But I still think it sounds good. In my opinion of course ( I'm not a musician ) the overall sound is what counts.

[congamyk]

Drummers. This is a tough subject for me.

To me 99% are a hindrance rather than an asset. The best drummers are already taken and the millions still left out there (millions of bad drummers) are amateur at best and don't listen.

I'm sure it's worse here in the midwest where Latin, Brazilian and other "ethnic" and world genres are further distanced from the coasts (Miami, LA, NY, etc).

IMO - most drummers are too loud and can't keep good time. If they happen to get a gig where there is another percussionist (congas, timbales, etc.), their knee-jerk reaction is to play louder and faster. Almost like they are trying to "out do" the other musician. They are clueless at listening and are hardly musical at all. I think the drumming world and drum education at large is ignorant and focuses on Rock, pop, hip-hop, how to add a bunch of loud, unnecessary cymbals, etc. instead of teaching drummers to be MUSICAL and ABOVE ALL KEEP TIME.

It's not impossible, I know a few that I enjoy playing with. And like others have stated, get to know the drummer, perhaps they will have the experience, intelligence and ability and learn to play with you instead of over you.



Edited By congamyk on 1190856351

[Tonio]

Man, I'd be hating it if I had to play without mics in a live venue. Though by the looks of the clip, it seems rather home brew or low key live show. No riser or stage at all. The tune itself does seem to cater to more of a rockish/timba/whatever you wanna call it.
I agree w/ Congamyk to a degree. Most trap drummers do seem to make it a point to have a "drumming match" so to speak. I does get distracting when it becomes a matcht instead of working as a team and making a cohesive statement for the sake of the tune.

Can we call em trap drummers kit drummers, since we conga players are in essense drummers too?

What I hate the most is when the group/band is obviously on the acoustic side, and running on a subtle tune or section, but the trap drummer still bashes away. And puleeeaase, chill on those cymbals.

T

[OLSONGO]

Sounds like many of you are playing with amateur, uneducated kit drummers. I have concentrated most of my time on playing and staying away from teaching , it seems I may have to start giving drum lessons; both hand drums and stick drums on a regular basis, wax on.... wax off
For those drummers that you guys talk about, record them one night and have them listen to how they sound, surprise them and see the look on their face.

Paz Olsongo

[jorge]

Yeah, Olsongo's suggestion is a good one. Dynamics (knowing when to play soft and when to play loud), timing, and complementing (rather than playing over) the other musicians are key skills for drummers. Recording your group and giving copies to all the musicians can have a big impact when everyone hears how they and the group sound to others. It is almost always a learning experience to hear yourself recorded. Some of the more talented and open minded drummers who play too loud can learn dynamics when they hear themselves objectively. Some will never learn dynamics. Learning timing is probably harder, and for those whose timing is "off", it starts with listening carefully to how they sound. Learning how to complement the other musicians can really only happen if the drummer already has good timing and dynamics. Listening to a recording of the group can help you learn to listen better while you are playing.



Edited By jorge on 1190867481

[CongaTick]

New drummer coming tonight. I'll keep my fingers crossed.

[Diceman]

Good luck CT,

[congamyk]

Sounds like many of you are playing with amateur, uneducated kit drummers. I have concentrated most of my time on playing and staying away from teaching , it seems I may have to start giving drum lessons; both hand drums and stick drums on a regular basis, wax on.... wax off
For those drummers that you guys talk about, record them one night and have them listen to how they sound, surprise them and see the look on their face.

Paz Olsongo

When you play across many different genres professionally, you have to play with a lot of different style drummers, thus the frustration. I play sax, percussion and sing so I am hired to play with pop, blues, rock, dance and jazz groups. In this context you come across many drummers who have no conception or understanding of the rhythms associated with conga drumming, Latin and/or Brazilian music.

I've found that these groups and drummers are content to ignore all of the beautiful and poly-rhythmic music available and keep playing their 3rd grade rhythms with loud clanging cymbals. I don't bother educating them or trying to advise them. I'm usually only interested in playing that gig and getting paid. It's the style of music they play and are used to, I don't need to change them. I also want them to call me back when they get another high-profile gig that allows them to add sax and auxiliary percussion so I can get paid again.

[jorge]

Unless you are content to "lip sync" on congas, ie play soft and not be heard over the drummer, you will have to play much harder to be heard if the drummer is playing over you. If the drummer listens and leaves room for you, you can play moderately and be heard clearly in the "holes" in the rhythm. Maybe part of the problem you have had with your hands when gigging a lot is that you are hitting too hard trying to be heard over effectively deaf drummers. It might be worth trying to educate some of the drummers you repeatedly work with.

[dannydrumperc]

My main instrument has always been drum set, but being Puerto Rican, playing other percussion instruments became a necessity. I’m not a pro by no means, but having to learn the other instruments and their patterns, had helped me understand the place of the drummer in a multi-percussionist band.

What I did was learn all the traditional parts, so I knew what to play when playing with others - if my partner does a martillo on bongo then I’ll do a tumbao on my toms, or if he/she is on congas - low sounds - then I’ll stay on my hats, cymbals or cowbells for higher sounds. If there are plenty of percussionists I try to stay simple, trying to fill any available niche or doubling an existing part if needed.

I used to play a multi-percussion kit (congas, timbales and toys) in a band with a drummer, but at the beginning it was only me. Then when the other guy came in I had to adjust my parts and play less busy patterns or less fills. He also had to adapt his playing.

Good communication is a must in any organization. So, knowing how to read/write music comes very handy in this situation. If the guy doesn’t know the cascara pattern or have problems distinguishing 2-3 from 3-2, then you write it down for him/her and problem solved. I know there are a lot of drummers and percussionist who don’t read music making this process even more difficult.

Having a partner on the percussion section should always be seen as an asset, like another pair of hands (and feet ). There is always some passage on a particular song where you which you could do something more but is physically impossible – or the gear is not available – and having some else to do it makes wonders for the song.



Edited By dannydrumperc on 1190983092

[OLSONGO]

Bros, this is a problem dating back to the 80's I remember when I and the other guys in the band use to discuss how the drummer didn't know clave or the double bass on the Sambas. This is 2007! 21st century, there are plenty of recordings,music notations, books,DVds, Youtube, clinics, etc..etc.. I don't cut them any slack, I know there are many drummers that know their stuff, in auditions if they don't know the basic latin, jazz, r&b funk, blues rhythms the word is NEXT!!.many drummers now days are playing the more obscure rhythms and those are the cats that spend the time learning the material . I play drums also and know that stuff and I consider myself more of a hand drummer. Also there are plenty of drum sticks and brush sizes that determine the the volume or the dynamics of a drum stroke.

Pa Olsongo

[Diceman]

Olsongo,

You hit the nail on the head, brother, there is no excuse for drummers not to know complimentary kit patterns, and play using lighter tools, but where are these drummers?
I play with some very accomplished pro jazz drummers, and the only grooves they tend to know are mock conga patterns, and even after discussion they will slip back into their comfort zone.
Dont get me wrong, there are some drummers who can play with percussionists and usually because they have also learned hand drums and have an interest, but a majority of them dont.
I have now started buying books for latin drum kit and am going to copy out the lines and handing it to them, most of them read, so it shouldnt be a problem.

As Congamyk says a contented drummer will rehire you so until I start my own band, I am not in a position to say 'NEXT'.

The quest for the drummer with 'big ears' and small sticks continues

suave

[CongaTick]

Dice, et al,
Didn't find him last night. unfortunately. Couldn't keep time! Drove us nuts. So for now, have decded to keep it a tight trio (bass, guitar, congas) and plow the fusion furrow withou a trap set to fight.

[bongosnotbombs]

Dice, et al,
Didn't find him last night. unfortunately. Couldn't keep time! Drove us nuts. So for now, have decded to keep it a tight trio (bass, guitar, congas) and plow the fusion furrow withou a trap set to fight.

Sounds like a nice set up to me!