how to keep the tempo steady

[JohnnyConga]

For some people that may lack that "internal clock", TIMING IS EVERYTHING!....I Pride myself on my Timing....I have "kept" most of my gigs because of just that having good Time.... "Lock and Rock" is what I say...I smile when i play and why not?, it's the thing that makes me the happiest, is playing for people......and MY TIMING is what is gonna make them WANT to dance....for I Am A "DANCE MUSICIAN"....JC Johnny Conga...

Attachment: http://mycongaplace.com/forum/eng/uploa ... chards.jpg

[franc]

mi amigos rumberos!! :^) i just count the clave pulse to keep time also since i know how to read music it is easy for me, then when is time for the break, transitions or solo i count in four to get there.. i use my foot to help me on time. i also have learn to also count the chorus, the piano, brass, and other intruments phrases, etc..this is respect to salsa!! i am half way in internalizing the time feel, though!! i still need the paper in front of me ,but i am getting better as time goes by. i started reading when i first became interested in percussion. now i can take my eyes of the paper. at first i couldn't. it is of great feelling when you feel the whole band is synchronized in time,, space and feelling. but like my fellow friends have said , count, count, practice, practice and eventually internalized, internalized the time!!!. the innner clock!! my best and ache!!! franc

[yoni]

Hi Johnny Conga

Right you are, I say, no reason at all not to smile! Whatever expression comes I guess, long as we're enjoying. And if the people are enjoying too, all the better. I'm not religious but in my faith I heard it's written that the main job of the musician is to inspire the people to dance...



Edited By yoni on 1150627295

[bdrbongo]

For some people that may lack that "internal clock", TIMING IS EVERYTHING!....I Pride myself on my Timing....I have "kept" most of my gigs because of just that having good Time.... "Lock and Rock" is what I say...I smile when i play and why not?, it's the thing that makes me the happiest, is playing for people......and MY TIMING is what is gonna make them WANT to dance....for I Am A "DANCE MUSICIAN"....JC Johnny Conga...

Absolutely!
A bass player friend of mine and I frequently get hired together because of our timing.
If you "think" too much about your timing it will elude you.

[Smejmoon]

First I wanted to say, that metronome did not help me to improve my timing, even though I've spent a lot of time with it. (I carry it in my bag everywhere.) Read following with grain of salt, because I still don't have good timing, but I'm sure it improves.

The most important thing that helped me is listening. Listen to what you play, listen to what others play. Recorded and live. Think of which places are harder. Spend more time on them, less on easy parts.

Next is singing. Should not be loud, maybe done in your head. Sing 'Bum Bum Bum Bum', or 'one two three four', or some melody. I prefer to sing song I'm playing, I believe it makes everything I play more fitting. Try singing in empty spaces. Sing in the style of solo few bars before you start playing it to feel how it fits.

Other fun part is to play with guys who have much better time and much worse than you. Keeping time for newbies should be fun and challenge, especially if they are strong and loud machos.

Playing for dancers are realy pushing my limits. I feel I may not slow down or speed up if girls are still dancing. I can do it for fun, but to keep up groove is most important. I wonder how other people feel about it.

Now back to metronome. What I use it mostly is for checking. Checking speed, speeding up places I can not play fast or slow, checking if what I play is ok. Also when I improvise alone I let metronome to keep time. I don't think that many hours playing rhythms with metronome helps so much, at least not for me yet. (Or I have to use it more?).

But there are some fun tricks, that help. Don't play every metronome beat. Make it play offbeats, while you play on beat. Make metronome to play every 8th of beats you play. Or every 9th and so on. Play in different time than metronome like 4:3. I guess that forces one to keep his own time.

To summarize first advice is to listen more, play less. Second, push yourself in situations that challenge your timing skills. And get a metronome to check if I'm right.



Edited By Smejmoon on 1150732929

[Smejmoon]

What do you think of counting smaller subdivisions than you play? Like playing 8th notes and counting 16th notes?

It sure must improve timing, becouse there are twice as less space to go wrong, but how does it influences swinging of music?

[Charangaman]

I sometimes play with guitarists in a "trio" setting, and I'm afraid that they (the ones I work with, not every guitarist however), don't necessarily worry about the rythm. When they do a little melody that's around two bars long, they somehow extend one or several notes and I'm needing to compromise in order to make the tune sound like it's supposed to.

Totally! Been playing with a guitarist who mainly plays acoustic, hells bells he is loose caboose!

They (the guitars/piano/whatever) need to lock onto us, hate having to re-adjust mid song.

When I'm playing I realized after considering this thread, I'm not thinking at all and when I do - I go wrong..

[windhorse]

What do you think of counting smaller subdivisions than you play? Like playing 8th notes and counting 16th notes?

It sure must improve timing, becouse there are twice as less space to go wrong, but how does it influences swinging of music?

You definitely want to eventually play without counting.
If you're thinking to count, then it's slowing you down.
You have to not think to be perfect on timing.
The perfect timing is out in space being shared by the musicians. No one person causes it, and no one should force it. Yet, everyone should recognize it and play around it and to it. What I'm talking about is a high level musicianship property probably takes decades of practice with the same people to achieve,, unless you happen to be an enlightened musician that just "has" it already. (I'm not there yet by any means,, but I think I recognize it fleetingly)

[yoni]

What do you think of counting smaller subdivisions than you play? Like playing 8th notes and counting 16th notes?

It sure must improve timing, becouse there are twice as less space to go wrong, but how does it influences swinging of music?

Smejmoon, I see your point.. while I don't consciously count, I do at times play the smaller subdivisions in the form of "grace notes" or "shadow beats", as I call them. They are unheard, but quietly tapping out the sixteenth notes (or whatever the interval) can help keep a groove, like a little motor running under the accented beats.

[Bataboom]

Hi guys besides the trumpet and percussion player I am the set drummers fillin when he is on vacation. Well he left this week and I have to fill in on drum set and thats where I can feel the tempo struggle in the band. The drummer sets the tempo IMO and its when your actually the drummer that you can feel the strain of everyone fighting to keep it the right speed and time. I noticed the keyboard players trying to overcome the drummer and call the tempo shots, next the singers and following by the guitarist.

During practice the leader told me on few occations we was too fast, but really I didnt start the tempo the keayboards started the song and I followed trying to change what they started is really hard because they are not good followers and if they hold on to their tempo when I try to change I will be off and they will stay on what they are doing making the song really off time bad.

For the drummer to set the timing of the song he has to have good followers that know with out a doubt that they should follow the tempo of the drummer at al cost and at any time in the song. Of Coarse im not gonna stand up and preach that im just the fillin and cant wait until the regular drummer gets back and I can get back to FOLLOWING the drummer on my congas ! :p

[caballoballo]

Hola rumberos,

Imho, I think you should let the ryhtm flow inside you,once you feel that,then you can keep the tempo steady. I am a SalSa Bongó Player,usually I sit beside the Conga during the first parts of the song and when is time for the montuno I move close to the Timbales for the Campaneo. I either tap with my leg, dance to the music,move from side to side or sing the clave if I think I am slightly out. Just feel the rhytm and look for yourself into that rhytm. In SalSa the part where the tempo may get loose is during the Mambo, the Moña or solos,that is the time to be careful with the tempo. Salsa Players, take some time and watch Roberto Roena playing the campana,he does not play the tipical way,he adds a beat to the pattern which synchronize with the seco slap of the Conga thus keeping the tempo steady even during solos or Mambos.



Edited By caballoballo on 1150814399

[akdom]

Hi again


When playing salsa, it is very important to keep the timing right. But once you know who does what (conguero, bongocero, campanas etc...) and what patterns should be played where and when (clave, salsa bell, campana de bongocero etc...) it is quite difficult to get out of the "grid" and not to stick to the tempo.

Salsa is like a machine..... each player is a part, and it won't work if one part is doing wrong.

On the technical part, their is one exercise that can help you guys out:

Keep a basic 4/4 that you can sing, tap or listen to and play triplets. Your play will start to be completely off and then will come back to the "1".

This helps you to travel through the actual timing and feel the beat. You should always come back to the "1" of the 4/4 when you play triplets (I hope this is clear, english is not my first language).

This is done a lot in West African music during solos for example and it also sounds great.

You can also do it the other way around and play and keep a basic 4/4 while someone plays the triplets... This is like keeping the basic pattern during an off beat/off timing solo.

Hope it helps


B

[solo]

halo akdom!

what you said is right, but I've a lot of problem because I play in acoustic band which consist bass, guitar, percussion and 2 vocal so it's harder for me the keep the tempo steady compare if there is a drummer. besides I also have a problem with my friends, because sometimes the songs get too crowded with a lot of rhtyme, so I can't enjoy the song because the composition is bad, but I still try to make the tempo steady.

have you the same experience? how you deal with this kind of problem? sometimes I am feel so desprate, because my friends keep complaining my tempo, and I can't figure out the problem. in my opinion, the tempo was distrubed by the rhytm between me and my guitarist which doesnt fit to each other, do you know what I mean? ( sory, my english is also bad)

what your opinion?

thanks very much!



Edited By solo on 1150818512

[franc]

solo,
know what you mean. the same thing has happened to me. i also accompanied a guitarrist , which in some cases play the guaracha pattern in a way that interfered with time. he also is the main singer . i play the bongos and do some chorus work. this is without rehearsel. there are two main guitarrist . we played in a dinnerbar club, there we play what is called ''bohemia'' . this mean that any one present in the dinner that can sings or play an instrument can participate with us .mistakes are allowed since is without rehearsel. the least mistakes the better. i do all my best to make the least mistake. sometimes i have to let them start ahead so then i can adjust to the right timing.that how it is. also english is not my first language. i agree and understand you perfectly. just follow the advice of our friends above ok. i have learn a lot from this forum since first i became a member. take care ok my best and áche!! franc

[akdom]

Hi Solo


It is funny, because I war practicing yesterday night with a band and what you mentionned happened (like almost everytime...).

What I do, when things go wrong, is that I talk to the musicians.

Yesterday, when we all arrived and were ready to play, I called for a meeting. It sounds weired, but it is necessary. I spoke for about half an hour. I mentionned the good thinks we found last time we played and I mentionned the things that do not work at all, and those that need to be re-arranged.

In this case, I was not dealing with a guitar player, but with 1 trombone, 1 sax and 1 flute.

But the result was the same. They have a hard time to keep things simple and tend to do way too much. They all come from a jazz backgrouns and we are playing a salsa song. The approach is different in jazz and salsa.

So, even though I am a percussionist, I am the one in the band with the best experience in this field. So, during this meeting, I handed the band members a suggested structure of the whole song with suggested parts for the brass section.

I then explained each part of the song and how it should work. We then all listened carefully to a song that looks like the one we created and I pointed out the parts were we were wrong because what the whole band was playing in these parts was way too far away from what we wanted to do.

So to answer part of your question, I talk to the other musicians. I talk a lot. I try not to hurt anyone's feeling, but if something is bothering me because something sounds wrong, I say it, I analyze it, and I try to give alternatives and solutions.

It is not an easy task indeed since sometimes, musicians do not understand the importance of percussions and they think that percussions can be added or removed without altering the song...

As we know, this is wrong. If you decided to play with a percussionist, consider him (her) as a full size musician. Especially if you play acoustic.

Also, to go back to timing.

It is very very very important to be able to sing when you play. For example, yesterday (again) during the rehearsal, one of the musician had timing and rythm problems.

This one musician is playing bells on this salsa song. As you might know, bells and claves are really important in this kind of music. They accentuate the changes, they are the time keepers and the guidelines for each and every musician.

Now, this guy, doesn't have much experience in this field. So he is sometimes struggeling with timing, clave (playing 3/2 claves when supposed to play 2/3..), change of bells and bells patterns (from clave to mambo bell for example).


So, as the rythm section "leader", I have to keep an eye on him, but also on the drummer/timbalero (who also has a jazz background and not much experience in latin music). I have to make sure we are all tight and play the right thing, and I have to make sure that everyone knows where they are within the song so that we all play transitions and breaks together.

It is hard for some people to "feel" that the end of one part is coming. Some people have a hard time, in long parts (32 bars for example), to kknow where they are (bar 12?, 16?, 24?).

So my role is to count for them. When they make a mistake, I sing what they are supposed to play while playing my part. I announce the breaks by telling them (next turn, we do the break!), I count out loud the bars to make sure we are all together on some tricky parts (one, two, three...!!!) etc....

Now, this is only possible after years of practice, but it is great. If you can play your part (including variations or not), and count, focus on someone elses part, if you always know where you are in the song, or if you can, just by focusing, "feel" where you are in the song, If you can sing what the other instruments are playing, then your timing should be OK.

If you can do all that, it simply means that you can see the song globally while playing and that your hands are actually playing "alone" and you can focus on something else. Usually, this comes with steady timing. And when you are just playing (like in gigs), and that you are more focused on your part, your timing is obviously even better.

I am not sure that this makes sense to you guys, but it does to me.

I am not a pro musician, but I have been playing for a while, and I gave years of classes (which helps to keep timing, analyze what has to be played and how, that make you study polyrythmy and make you understan interaction between musician).

I guess, the bottom line is, we all play together to be listened by someone outside of the band. So what counts is the result. If we have to play lighter, leave more rooms for other musicians etc... we should do it!

B