congaplace.com

Posted: **Wed Nov 15, 2006 5:54 pm**

The attached picture is said to be of Miguel Somodeville, Trinidad Torregosa, Jose C Valdes Frias (Moñito), any clue as to who is who?

Attachment: http://mycongaplace.com/forum/eng/uploa ... ilakpa.doc

Posted: **Mon Nov 20, 2006 2:40 pm**

Ralph,

Neither Miguel Somodevilla nor Trinidad Torregosa are in that photo. The drummer in the center is the legendary Pablo Roche (Okilakpa) on the left holding the itotele is a very young Jesus Perez. I am not sure who is on the right with the okonkolo but it might be Jose Frias.

Facundo

Edited By Facundo on 1164033935

Posted: **Mon Nov 20, 2006 4:56 pm**

i figured it was incorrect...thanks for clearing that up, imagine...Pablo Roche on Iya, and Jesus Perez on Itotele....thanks...

Posted: **Tue Nov 21, 2006 6:53 pm**

I was going to stay out of it,but I couldn't do that to my ancestors,the one in the picture are Toreegosa,Roche and the young Miguel Somadaville,(he started young as Perez,but the picture was taken in the 1920's),before Jusus Perez could be playing. Calazan Frias was more in to congas than into Batas playing.Dr. Zaragemca

Posted: **Wed Nov 22, 2006 6:49 pm**

zaragenca wrote:I was going to stay out of it,but I couldn't do that to my ancestors,the one in the picture are Toreegosa,Roche and the young Miguel Somadaville,(he started young as Perez,but the picture was taken in the 1920's),before Jusus Perez could be playing. Calazan Frias was more in to congas than into Batas playing.Dr. Zaragemca

Welcome back Z,

Ok, here we go again! I will substantiate my claim about "your ancestors". The picture is either from volume 4 of Los Instramentos de los Afrocubanos or La Africania de La Musica Afrocubana both by Fernando Ortiz. I have both books. However, they are not at hand since I am responding to this from work so I can say which book for certain.

Now, both Trinidad and Miguel were substantially older than Pablo Roche as they both played with Pablo Roche's father, Andres Roche (Andre Sublime). Miguel was André's preferred secondero ( itotele player) and Trinidad played okonkolo for him. There is a picture in one of the same books of Miguel Somodevilla playing the iya drum at the burial tomb of the very famous Santera Pepa Eshubi. It is very easy to see in the picture that Miguel was an old man during this time.

Miguel was held by Pablo as the grand deacon of bata drumming and as living icon of an era that he himself was nurtured by. An elder Santero who hung around Pablo's house as a kid relayed to me many of the accolades given about Miguel by Pablo. One being his sense of time which was as exacting as a clock.

Trinidad mainly played okokolo with an ability that far exceeded everyone on that drum. Trinidad was also known for constructing bata drums. A dance teacher whose dance school was my first exposure to afro-cuban drumming had met Trinidad in Cuba. Trinidad was the director of the drummers that played for their dance troupe at the San Souci Club in Havana. He noted in conversations about that experience that Trinidad was an older man. This was during the early 50's and also around the time Ortiz was publishing his works about the afro-cuban music.

Jesus Perez on the other hand was one of the youngest bata players in Pablo Roche's Anya house. The elder Santero I mentioned noted that Pablo was very hard on Jesus. Jesus tended to make more mistakes than any of the other young drummers learning from Pablo. Perhaps Pablo knew that Jesus was destined to be the carry Pablo's knowledge to our time.

Facundo

Posted: **Sat Nov 25, 2006 8:45 pm**

Welcome Facundo,first of all with the facts in the picture,(tell me why you think that the picture corresponded to the 1950's).and again where is the picture of Miguel Somodavilla and Trinidad Torregosa,playing with Andres 'El Sublime'.

Posted: **Sat Nov 25, 2006 8:48 pm**

Welcome Facundo,first of all with the facts in the picture,(tell me why you think that the picture corresponded to the 1950's),and again where is the picture of Miguel Somodavilla and Trinidad Torregosa,playing with Andres 'El Sublime'. playing in the event of Pepa Eshubi...,and why the one in the picture isnot TorregosaTthe rest of what you said,it is known by me.Dr.

Posted: **Mon Nov 27, 2006 4:45 pm**

I forget to point out that it never have been of my knowledge that Jesus Perez have any problem getting the articulation of the batas,(I personally knew both,Trinidad Torregosa and Jesus Perez and observed both of them performing).Dr. Zaragemca

Posted: **Tue Nov 28, 2006 7:27 pm**

zaragenca wrote:Welcome Facundo,first of all with the facts in the picture,(tell me why you think that the picture corresponded to the 1950's).and again where is the picture of Miguel Somodavilla and Trinidad Torregosa,playing with Andres 'El Sublime'.

I forget to point out that it never have been of my knowledge that Jesus Perez have any problem getting the articulation of the batas,(I personally knew both,Trinidad Torregosa and Jesus Perez and observed both of them performing).Dr. Zaragemca

Z,

At no time did I say that the picture was from the 1950's. I noted that Ortiz plubilshed his works in the early 50's. The photo is from his works and he noted who was in the pictures. Bascom did the same. I never said their was a photo of Miguel and Trinidad playing at the funeral rites of Pepa Eshubi. However, there is one of Miguel playing at her rites in one of Ortiz's books. My point was that he was an old man in the photo.

The fact that you have no knowlege about Jesus Perez during his earily training is of no consequence. That happens to be something that only someone very close to Pablo's anya house during Jesus's early years while learning would know about. The person who passed that on to me was very close to Pablo's family and around his drummers. Clearly, Jesus develped into a master so observing him as an adult would not reveal problems learning in his youth.

Facundo

Posted: **Wed Nov 29, 2006 9:04 pm**

Ok rother Facundo,Dr. Ortiz published things in the 50's which were started long before that date,(I know more people close to the Yorubas religion than just one person, (andclose to everybody),as a matter of fact both Jesus Perez and Raul 'Nasaco' Diaz,(of the root of Matanzas),are one of the youngest bataleros which became Olu/bata in the history of Ocha in Cuba,I could tell you thing even about Pablo Rocha's family which I know,(close you want me to be). and my Mother and Godfathers know even more stuff which have naver get out of the Ocha/house,(I was listening to it when I was growing up), I know the whole history of Josefa 'Pepa' Herrera,(Eshu BI),I have family living in Regla which I visitted many times, I went to Guanabacoa several times wich my mother,also Mantilla which people don't know but have famouse Bataleros and Babalochas, El Cerro, I went to Maatanzas,Camaguey,las Villas,Pinar del Rio, Guines,Madruga,etc.and I observed Miguel,Torregosa,Perez, los Andres,(becouse there are various),Papo Pablo,Virgilio,Lazaro,Aldama,Jauregi,and all those guys several times playing around,so do you thing that somebody is going to tell me how they look at an specific time in Cuba.Dr. zaragemca

Posted: **Wed Nov 29, 2006 9:39 pm**

What was the question?? ??? ??? ???

Posted: **Wed Nov 29, 2006 10:50 pm**

Z

Your arrogance has had you banned before.
Keep it up, you wont be back.

Edited By ABAKUA on 1164840665

Posted: **Thu Nov 30, 2006 10:08 pm**

zaragenca wrote:Ok rother Facundo,Dr. Ortiz published things in the 50's which were started long before that date,(I know more people close to the Yorubas religion than just one person, (andclose to everybody),as a matter of fact both Jesus Perez and Raul 'Nasaco' Diaz,(of the root of Matanzas),are one of the youngest bataleros which became Olu/bata in the history of Ocha in Cuba,I could tell you thing even about Pablo Rocha's family which I know,(close you want me to be). and my Mother and Godfathers know even more stuff which have naver get out of the Ocha/house,(I was listening to it when I was growing up), I know the whole history of Josefa 'Pepa' Herrera,(Eshu BI),I have family living in Regla which I visitted many times, I went to Guanabacoa several times wich my mother,also Mantilla which people don't know but have famouse Bataleros and Babalochas, El Cerro, I went to Maatanzas,Camaguey,las Villas,Pinar del Rio, Guines,Madruga,etc.and I observed Miguel,Torregosa,Perez, los Andres,(becouse there are various),Papo Pablo,Virgilio,Lazaro,Aldama,Jauregi,and all those guys several times playing around,so do you thing that somebody is going to tell me how they look at an specific time in Cuba.Dr. zaragemca

Z,

So your point is what?

Facundo

Posted: **Fri Dec 01, 2006 1:24 am**

Dr. Z..

What is your "real" name.. or the name people know you by.....I wanna ask aldama if he knows you?

Posted: **Fri Dec 01, 2006 4:13 am**

Hello board,

I have only been following this forum for just a lil while. I have particularly been following the Bata threads and dr. Z's posts. I asked aldama who were the tamboleros in the photos in this thread and the other thread.

He states that in the photo shown in this thread is Jesus on okonkolo, Pablo on Iya and Aquedo Morales Elbembon on itotele.

In the other photo on the other thread
Standing:
Pablo and a family member of Nicolai Angarica (whose name he does not recall).
sitting on okonkolo is trinidad; sitting on iya is Nasako;
sitting on itotele is Giraldo Rodriquez.

I hope my small input helps clear up who is actually in the photos and call a spade a spade.

peace, kosodide

congaplace.com

Bata Photo - Okilakpa Bata Group Photo