Questions for All Bata Players - Bata Questions

[Berimbau]

Gracias Facundo,
That was the BEST response to my questionaire yet.


Saludos,


Berimbau

[Facundo]

Facundo...do u know "Peachy" Jarmin??...he is an old friend of mine from the late 70's when he was touring with Mongo...."JC" Johnny Conga...

Johnny,

Oh yeah - Peachy and I have and have a very long history. I was his first bata teacher and provided his entrance into the Ocha circles. My ex- wife put elekes on him. I was there when Mongo asked him to join his group. From your posts, I think we know a lot of the same folks from the old New York croud. Julito Collazo (ibae), Totico, Patato, (Juan Candela (ibae), Richie Landrum (ibae), Sonny Morgan (ibae), Gean Golden, Baba Femi and Flaco just to name a few. At some point I am sure our paths have crossed as well.

Best regards,
Facundo

[Facundo]

I wonder what Gene Golden was doing with that drum?

-David

Maybe accenting the downbeats, the one on toques like Chacha Olokefun, etc.

Saludos,

Jorge Ginorio

Hey Guys,

That is not Gene Golden in the photo with Patato. It is Dele (Oladele previously known as Sam Fann). He was a member of the old NY bembe /drum circuit. That picture was taken shortly after he left Philly with Bab Crowder, Sonny Morgan and Garvin Massueaux to join Olatunji's group.

Facundo

[zaragemca]

Greeting Facundo,I didn't get to see Francisco Aguabella,and Julito Collazo,(ibae),becouse they came early from Cuba,but did you know,or they ever said who was their Olubata in Cuba?.Dr. Zaragemca



Edited By zaragemca on 1144424924

[Facundo]

Greeting Facundo,I didn't get to see Francisco Aguabella,and Julito Collazo,(ibae),becouse they came early from Cuba,but did you know,or they ever said who was their Olubata in Cuba?.Dr. Zaragemca

Hey Doc,

Of course you know their story. They came to the States with Kathren Dunham and worked with her dance company initially. After the company ended Francisco went to the west coast and Julito stayed in New York. I had seen Julito play many times at bembes but really got a chance to hang out an interface with him when he toured with Mongo and the group came to Philly. I remember him saying that he used to travel from Havana to Guanabacoa to study with Pablo Roche and Raul Diaz. However, he couldn't play in the deep fundamento ceremonies because he did not have Ocha made during that time. Never the less, he must have been considdered and exceptional young drummer who was allowed to move around with some of the real heavy folk. His mother was a very well respected Iyalocha who had Yemaya made. He was one of the few Cuban's that I ever met that could speak Yoruba fluently. He was very well know among the Abakua pontencias.

I never had a chance to really talk to Fracisco. The one and only time that I saw him in person was when he played the bembe for my Ocha. That was my first trip to the west coast. I am fairly sure that he was from one of the Mantanza lines of Anya but I am not sure who his Olubata was. Both Peachy Jarmen, who Johnny mentioned and Tony Rosa studied with and were sworn to Anya by Francisco which was done Mantanza style.

Facundo

[zaragemca]

Saludos Facundo,yes I knew the story of Katherine Durham,but as I said before,they came early and I didn't have the opportunity to see them in Cuba...So it was Pablo Roche and Raul 'Nasaco' Diaz the one working with Julito Collazo...That excuse of not having Ocha,doesn't click for Bataleros,the mayority of Bataleros didn't have Ocha,just the ceremony to be able to play Bata,...but who might knows the real reason at that time in Cuba anyway,thanks.Dr. Zaragemca



Edited By zaragemca on 1144457903

[Facundo]

Saludos Facundo,yes I knew the story of Katherine Durham,but as I said before,they came early and I didn't have the opportunity to see them in Cuba...So it was Pablo Roche and Raul 'Nasaco' Diaz the one working with Julito Collazo...That excuse of not having Ocha,doesn't click for Bataleros,the mayority of Bataleros didn't have Ocha,just the ceremony to be able to play Bata,...but who might knows the real reason at that time in Cuba anyway,thanks.Dr. Zaragemca

Zaragemca,
There are certain ceremonies such as the presentation of Iyawos to Anya that it is required that the Anya drummers have Ocha made to play for the presentation. This is considered to be a very sacred ceremony because Anya is communicating to Olofi that a new head has been crowned. Before the ceremony begins any drummer that does not have Ocha made gets up and is replaced by one who does. Old school Olorisha know this and will insist that this is done. They may allow an okokolo player who doesn't have Ocha to remain but the iya and itotele must be maned by Olorisha. Even an Akpon (lead singer), who does not have Ocha made, is not allowed to sing for the Iyawo during this ceremony. In the eara that we are talking about, Pablo Roche and Fermin De Basinde, the codes were very strickly enforced. There was even a time when aleyos (non- initiates were not even allowed in the same room that Anya was being played. If the bembe was outside, aleyos were kept well behind the Olorisha. Now if you have seen anything different, than it is a serious diversion from true Lucumi practice. However, the protocols of Anya are clear and very strick because of the sacred natue of Anya. I think this may be the core reason for Berimbau's original set of questions. In that, many today are unaware of the protocols of Anya. The prevelence of aberikola drums and their usage has no doubt contributed to this deminished status of true Anya drums.

Puntia, dispite his virtuosity as a player and singer, could not function as an Olubata in all of the ceremonies involving Anya until he made Shango here in the States. The same holds true for Francisco who made Obatala here also. Subsequently, Francisco became an owner of a set of Anya and began to function as an Olobata on the west coast. Julito went back to Cuba to make Shango and later went back to pass to Ifa but was never a functioning Olubata. After make his Ocha he played aberikola and guiro but abandoned both, for the most part, after he became a Babalawo.

Facundo

[zaragemca]

Well Facundo you are talking about a very specific ocassion of the Initiation of Iyawos,which is done in an specific room away from everybody which have nothing to do with the process,(not only from Bataleros which don't have Ocha),but also from other people which would have nothing to do with this affairs even with Ocha,becouse this is a very private thing between the Iyawo and the Godfather/Godmother,and other people which would be there, and that is why... yes, for this very private ocassion the Batalero should be somebody which have witnessed,(going through this ceremony before),but that is done in a private room away from many other people which might have Ocha too. After that the Bataleros are free to play according to their knowledge.Dr. Zaragemca



Edited By zaragemca on 1144626206

[JohnnyConga]

OYE Facundo ..email me privetly, please at johnnyconga@hotmail.com > I'd like to talk with you outside this forum....Gracias....I'm from the Boogie down Bronx, and my path crossed a LOT with other drummers . I worked alongside Baba Femi with Chuck Davis Co. along with Yomi Yomi Awoldwo, my first jimbe teacher, studied with "Pab" Landrum at "Jazzmobile" and with Charlie Persip. Did you know "George-Sabu-Caldwell"?, he played great drums with Olatunji and Katherine Dunhams troup. He taught me how "to play for dancers"(dance musician,as it's called today). Email me ..let's rap..."JC" Johnny Conga....

[Facundo]

Well Facundo you are talking about a very specific ocassion of the Initiation of Iyawos,which is done in an specific room away from everybody which have nothing to do with the process,(not only from Bataleros which don't have Ocha),but also from other people which would have nothing to do with this affairs even with Ocha,becouse this is a very private thing between the Iyawo and the Godfather/Godmother,and other people which would be there, and that is why... yes, for this very private ocassion the Batalero should be somebody which have witnessed,(going through this ceremony before),but that is done in a private room away from many other people which might have Ocha too. After that the Bataleros are free to play according to their knowledge.Dr. Zaragemca

Doc Z,

No, that does not accurately discribe the presentation of Iyawos to Anya. Surffice it to say that alanya having either Ocha or Ifa made has always been both an aspiration of all true alanya and an expectation of their Olubata as well as an obligation associated with the protocols of Anya. This remains the case, dispite appearances of many young drummers with "washed hands" playing Anya.

Facundo

[zaragemca]

Well brother Facundo,as I could see you are missing some rules,(which of course are for the knowledge only of the people with some category in the Religion),.Ifa, isn't for everybody which wanted to do it,but for the people which have been designated,'told' by the Orichas (when you are initiated),(and there are several reasons which I'm not going to point out),for which some people 'even with Ocha' could not take that track...And I don't know which first presentation of Iyawo to the Drums you are talking about,but the 'real first',(even if you have never witnessed),is done in private and there is specific detail,(not to the knowledge of everybody),why is done that way..Your brother.Dr.Zaragemca



Edited By zaragemca on 1144690268

[Facundo]

Well brother Facundo,as I could see you are missing some rules,(which of course are for the knowledge only of the people with some category in the Religion),.Ifa, isn't for everybody which wanted to do it,but for the people which have been designated,'told' by the Orichas (when you are initiated),(and there are several reasons which I'm not going to point out),for which some people 'even with Ocha' could not take that track...And I don't know which first presentation of Iyawo to the Drums you are talking about,but the 'real first',(even if you have never witnessed),is done in private and there is specific detail,(not to the knowledge of everybody),why is done that way..Your brother.Dr.Zaragemca

Doc Z,

With 37 years of Ocha made, having done atefa and therefore making me an Oluo (Olorisha + Babalawo) as well as being an Alanya; I'm hardly missing any rules. I weil know how one is marked to make Ocha as well as determining if a male has camino de Ifa. There is also no need to be cryptic as we are not approaching reveling any secrets. Nor condescending and implying that my experience in this area is to be found lacking. Your scholarly achievements and vast knowledge of history are quite obvious. That being the case, I willingly defer to your extertise in that area with no problem. However, this is my camp!

There are some that do go to Ifa direct without making Ocha first which is the reason for my mentoning that an Alanya would have to have either Ocha or Ifa made to play all the high ceremonies. Presentations of Iyawos are done in full view of everyone, Havana or Mantanza style, with the restrictions that I have already mentioned. Go to any fundamento bembe in NY, Miami and you will see a presentation. There is even a video recorded in Mantanza of a presentation to Anya. I have already alluded to what used to happen in Old Cuba so there is no need restate that. Please, lets move on.

Facundo

[zaragemca]

Saludos brother Facundo,this is not the first presentation of the Iyawo to the Head/Oricha,.....If it is done in front of everybody ,(Miami,NY.),as you said, it got to be the Bembe coming out of the 'Iyawo/Reclussion' which is a festivity for a new life,this is not the presentation of the Iyawo/head to the Oricha,as you said before.Either the term have been crossed in Miami,NY.,or there is some misunderstanding...You said to have 37 years of Ocha,you are welcome,but I have 52 years in this I was born into this.Dr. Zaragemca



Edited By zaragemca on 1144712845

[Facundo]

Saludos brother Facundo,this is not the first presentation of the Iyawo to the Head/Oricha,.....If it is done in front of everybody ,(Miami,NY.),as you said, it got to be the Bembe coming out of the 'Iyawo/Reclussion' which is a festivity for a new life,this is not the presentation of the Iyawo/head to the Oricha,as you said before.Either the term have been crossed in Miami,NY.,or there is some misunderstanding...You said to have 37 years of Ocha,you are welcome,but I have 52 years in this I was born into this.Dr. Zaragemca

Doc,
There is nothing you are saying that indicates your 52 years of whatever has resulted in a command of the subject at hand. We are talking about "Iyawos being presenting to Anya drums". That only happens "one time". We are not talking about anything that takes place in the initiation room (igbodu). Because Anya is an Orisha its' self and plays a special role in crowned heads propitiating Orisha, fully functioning Alayana must have Orisha crowned. That is the subject and my comments are clear. Dispite the youth of my initiations and possible handicap my birthplace may have encombered my acquisition of information, my position is well founded and accurate.
Facundo

[zaragemca]

Not Facundo, you were talking about the presentation of the Iyawo/head and made a reference of communicating with Olofi about a new head,(that is done inside the room and in private)...The other Bembe which is done in front of everybody is a celebration of a new live after the Iyawo coming form the 'reclusion' and it is for 'WHATEVER" Oricha which want to come and participate...And THAT IS THE CEREMONY WHICH IS DONE IN FRONT OF EVERYBODY...That rule that Iyawos are only presented to drums one time is not correct.....I said before if you have not witnessed something that doesn't mean that it is not done...It is all related to the reason for which the person is coming to do Ocha which is different for many people. I guest both ceremonies are clear now,your brother Dr. Zaragemca



Edited By zaragemca on 1144877650