Emiliano Salvador record

Let's talk about what can be found around that worth having..

Emiliano Salvador record

Postby Thomas Altmann » Tue Aug 24, 2021 8:58 pm

Dear forum members,

I'm just checking out the recordings of Cuban jazz pianist Emiliano Salvador. I have known and owned the vinyl of "Nueva visión" and "2" for many years. On YouTube I found 4 records more of him, one solo record, one called "Emiliano Salvador y su grupo /quinteto", and probably his last one, recorded in 1992 and released in 1994: "Ayer y Hoy". Now, there's another one, called "Una mañana de domingo" a.k.a. "Con fe" (rec. 1988). The YT tracks #3 and #6, "Un momento de inspiración" and "Blue Guaguancó", have some serious defects; it sounds as if there are fragments of a danzón inserted, played by a guitarist, from a completely different production. It's simply impossible to listen to them.

Question: Does anybody have the original vinyl of "Una mañana de domingo"? Did the original recording already have the same bugs as the YouTube version? In that case the entire production would have been tragically spoilt. Tragical, because Emiliano did not have the chance to record a lot of material, anyway.

Greetings,
Thomas
Thomas Altmann
 
Posts: 812
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2006 12:25 pm
Location: Hamburg

Re: Emiliano Salvador record

Postby Siete Leguas » Wed Sep 15, 2021 5:15 pm

Hi Thomas,

I found these versions on YT which don't seem to have the glitches that you mentioned, although I must say that I didn't listen to them entirely - it's really not my cup of tea.
I'm not sure if they are precisely the recordings that you were referring to, as they have slightly different titles: "Blues guaguancó" and "En un momento de inspiración".




Greetings,
SL
User avatar
Siete Leguas
 
Posts: 166
Joined: Sun May 17, 2020 4:34 pm
Location: Alemania

Re: Emiliano Salvador record

Postby Thomas Altmann » Thu Sep 16, 2021 11:53 am

Thank you Siete Leguas; it's a bit embarrassing: I could have made this research myself ...

That proves that the original recordings must have been O.K.

I must admit that I couldn't listen to this music for too long either. But it must be seen historically, and for people involved in the genre of Latin Jazz, Emiliano Salvador is basic literature, whether you like it or not.

As a matter of fact, I do like Emiliano. Only the production is immature and pretentious, like the reverb room for the sax solo and the "emancipated" bass playing that was cutting edge in the 1970s and became even more militant through the pop-and-slap (r)age of the 1980s. Even for the percussion there might have been better options than the nervous, olympic, up-tempo tumbaos featured here. But it is what it is, and something like that may as well land on my music stand someday; so it's better to know the material that exists, and what has been done so far, in order to either imitate it or propose some better alternative.

By the way, I had also searched for your "Cuba canta, canta", to no avail, however.

Thanks again,
Thomas
Thomas Altmann
 
Posts: 812
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2006 12:25 pm
Location: Hamburg

Re: Emiliano Salvador record

Postby Siete Leguas » Thu Sep 16, 2021 7:09 pm

Hi Thomas,

my problems quite often start whenever music genres get the suffix "-Jazz". Obviously, it is very pretentious for someone like me to make any statement whatsoever about "Jazz", like that, in general. However, while I usually find music labeled as Jazz rhythmically interesting and challenging as a listener, I often don't connect at all with its harmony: it makes me lose the interest quickly, I get bored or even annoyed.

I guess my harmonic taste is too simple, basic or unrefined for that kind of msuic, and probably I don't even really know what I'm talking about. In any case, one thing is true: either music (or any form of art) moves something inside of me, or it just doesn't, and that's what matters to me, period. Trying to rationalize it becomes secondary.

That said, there is some Jazz that I do enjoy listening to. I generally like the New Orleans/Dixieland stuff, the so-called gypsy Jazz, I guest most of the pre-bebop era. I also like its connections to soul, funk and hip-hop. Jimmy Smith, for example. Talking about Cuban Jazz pianists, Frank Emilio Flynn's "Gandinga, Mondongo y Sandunga" is a delight to my ears. Or some of Irakere's work that I got to know through some older posts of yours here. I also very much like the tune "Chant" that you posted somewhere else here, where you participated as a percussionist - I would call that Jazz, but I'm not sure if that fits the style; I believe you called it "Fusion" then.

Thanks for the information about Emiliano Salvador anyway. I had never heard of him and it's always good to learn about important musicians.

And thanks for the research on "Cuba canta (canta)". I was hoping that the extensive music libraries of some forum members (or maybe just someone with an app like Shazam or so :)) could shed some light on the matter. But it seems that the song will remain a mystery for the moment...

Greetings,
SL
Last edited by Siete Leguas on Fri Sep 17, 2021 10:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Siete Leguas
 
Posts: 166
Joined: Sun May 17, 2020 4:34 pm
Location: Alemania

Re: Emiliano Salvador record

Postby Thomas Altmann » Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:26 pm

Hi Siete Leguas,

either music (or any form of art) moves something inside of me, or it just doesn't, and that's what matters to me, period.


I guess every listener who finds some meaning in music is evaluating it like this. Every time I need a scholarly lecture to understand a piece of music, it almost ceases to be music. Music isn't there to be theorized ... unless you are on the creative end of music making. There are situations where you have to temporarily suspend your own emotions to better serve the creative process of collective music making. Sometimes it is just work.

As Chtimulato correctly remarked in another thread: De gustibus non est disputandum.

As to myself, I am probably at least as much a Jazz- as a Latin musician. I have played all styles of Jazz, from Ragtime, New Orleans and Chicago Dixieland to Swing and Bop. My last project that I initiated and led myself was a Hard Bop to Post-Bop sextet, which was very much inspired by the Blue Note and Prestige productions from the 1950's to the late 1960's. I know many musicians who are exclusively active in the older Jazz styles and who cannot deal with complex harmonics, chords and changes. For them it's major, minor, and dominant seven - and that's O.K. for what they are doing. Whenever I played drums with them, I never did anything beyond two-beat or four-beat, no "dropping bombs" or whatever, because that would have been unmusical.

As a listener, I enjoy extended chords and unusual changes. It feels like somebody is opening the windows. And it is as much an emotional experience to me as listening to Rumba or Son. I feel emotionally related to all the hundreds of shadings between pure major and minor. I never analysed them, intellectually - until I had to write music myself ...

Thomas

P.S. the "day after": To say that there are hundreds of chords besides major and minor would certainly be an exaggeration. However, the respective position and function in different chord structures give one and the same chord a distinct emotional value. What also matters are voicing and orchestration. And for many people key and pitch make a big difference, too. That makes me feel that there are hundreds of shadings, although the mere material is limited.
Thomas Altmann
 
Posts: 812
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2006 12:25 pm
Location: Hamburg

Re: Emiliano Salvador record

Postby Siete Leguas » Fri Sep 17, 2021 10:21 am

Hi Thomas,

Thomas Altmann wrote:I guess every listener who finds some meaning in music is evaluating it like this.

Well... now that I think a bit more about it, I'm not sure if I would be so categorical with my previous statement. I mean, sure, it is indeed true for the most part, at least at a first level, but I also see a kind of feedback loop between the cognitive and the emotional to a certain degree.

Like the more you "know" about something, the more possible it is for you to appreciate the beauty in it and for it to evoke certain emotions. Talking about rhythm, for example, whenever I listen to music in odd time signatures (not very often), I need to intellectualize it and figure out a way to count it first, before I can "groove" with it. Or in my experience with Rumba or clave music in general: even though I liked it from the beginning, it is after starting to learn the different patterns and their connections that I've grown to like it and appreciate it even more.

So I wonder to what extent Jazz musicians love Jazz music BECAUSE they have put in the hard work diving into the music theory (Jazz harmony, etc.), long hours practicing, shedding, developing their chops, jamming with others... and can therefore appreciate the musicality of something that for me would unbearable after a short time, and perceive it in a completely different way than me.

Thomas Altmann wrote: As a listener, I enjoy extended chords and unusual changes. It feels like somebody is opening the windows.

I hear you here. Maybe it is a question of how, how often, how long the windows are open? I usually like Bossa Nova, with its rich, colourful, complex harmonizations but still remaining overall natural, beautiful music (to me) with relatable melodies and structures. Some styles of Jazz feel to me rather like a blurry abstract painting or a meal with so many spices that one can't recognise the ingredients anymore.

But then again, I'm a man of simple (harmonic) tastes. De gustibus and that. I'm a big fan of Lou Reed's music, so what else can I say? :) I think he was kind of proud of the fact that a good chunk of his discography share the harmony of a Nengón, possibly even simpler.

Sorry for drifting off-topic, anyway.

Greetings,
SL
User avatar
Siete Leguas
 
Posts: 166
Joined: Sun May 17, 2020 4:34 pm
Location: Alemania

Re: Emiliano Salvador record

Postby Thomas Altmann » Fri Sep 17, 2021 12:37 pm

Hi Siete Leguas,

no need to apologize for going OT so far, as we seem to be the only participants in this discussion. However, the subject of JAZZ in general is too big to be discussed here in depth.

I also see a kind of feedback loop between the cognitive and the emotional to a certain degree.


And the cerebral, intellectual as well. I use to say that our brain is of flesh and blood, too.

So I wonder to what extent Jazz musicians love Jazz music BECAUSE they have put in the hard work diving into the music theory (Jazz harmony, etc.), long hours practicing, shedding, developing their chops, jamming with others.


Talking about myself, the fascination for Jazz clearly came before all analyses and hard work.

It boils down to listening experience. Much of the music that we enjoy today was perceived as dissonant "devil's music" in early Baroque. And I'm absolutely sure that you have already appreciated an extended or altered chord (as more common in Jazz) in a popular context, without knowing it. You mentioned the Bossa Nova.

When I got into Latin music, I did not like Boleros at first. The more I listened to them (and the more I played them), I not only became accustomed to Boleros but even started to embrace them. Today the Bolero is one art form to cherish for me.

Some styles of Jazz feel to me rather like a blurry abstract painting or a meal with so many spices that one can't recognise the ingredients anymore.


Believe me, I do not automatically like anything that is labeled as Jazz! Even the (typical German) controversy of traditional versus modern does not hold. There are compositions by Jelly Roll Morton (who, by the way, underlined the importance of Latin influence on Jazz) or Duke Ellington that are harmonically quite sophisticated, while so-called modern musicians (Sonny Rollins, Chick Corea coming to my mind instantly) have at times intentionally taken recourse to simple harmonics.

Greetings,
Thomas
Thomas Altmann
 
Posts: 812
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2006 12:25 pm
Location: Hamburg

Re: Emiliano Salvador record

Postby Siete Leguas » Fri Sep 17, 2021 5:28 pm

Hi Thomas,

sure, I am familiar with some extended/altered chords.

I love boleros, too.

Greetings,
SL
User avatar
Siete Leguas
 
Posts: 166
Joined: Sun May 17, 2020 4:34 pm
Location: Alemania

Re: Emiliano Salvador record

Postby jorge » Sat Sep 18, 2021 3:53 am

You may not have appreciated all of Emiliano Salvador's style of Cuban Jazz in the 80s, but he laid a big part of the foundation for current Cuban Jazz. Regarding whether it is jazz or not, we have to remember jazz was uncommon in Cuba in the 70s and 80s, to the point that it was not taught in music schools and jazz performances were nearly prohibited. Much larger groups like Irakere, and smaller groups like Emiliano Salvador's (usually a quartet) were playing jazz-influenced Cuban music including influences like Weather Report, Miles (post Bitches Brew), Chick Corea and other "modernized" directions in jazz. They definitely brought jazz harmonies and melodies into Cuban music but also stretched jazz to include much more Cuban folkloric music. For example, listen to Miguelo Valdes who took over on congas after Frank Bejerano. Here he is with Emiliano Salvador around 1990 or 91, and again about 25 years later playing a tribute to Emiliano Salvador with his own group of all star Cuban musicians in NYC. Great 4 drum guaguanco, also nice 6/8 marcha, other innovations in "jazz" that have influenced modern Cuban popular music and music worldwide.

1990
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHU-kcx7kBk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUm5BcRGg0E

2014
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3_NxedXnB8
jorge
 
Posts: 1104
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2006 3:47 am
Location: Teaneck, NJ

Re: Emiliano Salvador record

Postby Thomas Altmann » Sat Sep 18, 2021 10:50 am

I have watched these videos time and again, especially the Cuban ones with Emiliano, and Miguel Valdés has inspired me a lot. There's another one, "Capullito de Alelí" (https://youtu.be/9KiaQdFzeg4) by Puerto Rican composer Rafael Hernández.

All Latin- /Afo-Cuban Jazz musicians should have studied Emiliano's work, especially the pianists, and I'm sure that at least the Cubans like Gonzalito Rubalcaba have done it.

Before the Cuban Revolution 1959, there was constant exchange between North American and Cuban musicians, and not only did Cuban music influence North American Jazz, but also Cuban musicians played North American Jazz, including Jazz harmonies. Leonardo Acosta makes a strong point about this in his book Cubano Be, Cubano Bop, and I can hear that in the styles of the musicians who were active in the Cuban Descarga era. I have just checked out Felipe Dulzaides, who, by the way, did some awfully cheesy stuff, too. On one of these records we can hear a young José Luis Quintana playing congas!

After the revolution, the cultural exchange was shut down, except for a minimum of scarce guest performances, and this blockade was brought about by the political leaders of both Cuba and the U.S., and at the same time lamented by artists on both sides. Let me cite a statement of the Cuban Communist Party from 1977, translated by Robin Moore in his book Music & Revolution:

"The creations of the oppressor nation are presented as objects of universal value, a standard against which the cultural products of the exploited country are measured. The latter are valued on the basis of how closely they conform to established foreign models. Those that diverge from them are deprecated and considered simple or inferior products. Dominant interests would have the oppressed country believe that the language, customs, habits, and arts of the oppressor are in every way superior to its own and that, in consequence, it will renounce its own nature, content itself with imitating, and distance itself from the forces that could contribute to its liberation. In so doing, it would not only impoverish itself but also leave itself spiritually and materially at the mercy of the enemy." [2006:23]

I'd like to leave this statement uncommented. All I want to say is that the history of the country in which I was born, has shown that any kind of cultural isolation has a destructive effect on the arts and artists, eventually exposing them to spiritual starvation.

The incorporation of Afro-Cuban folkloric elements, in which Irakere was probably the leading force, might not only have been the product of a creative artistic decision, but also the free fare ticket to perform Jazz, because Paquito, Chucho, Arturo Sandoval, Carlos Emilio Morales and Enrique Plá were all Jazz guys. They loved Be-Bop.

One stylistic and harmonic development that took place in U.S. American Jazz after 1959 was the evolution of the modal concept. Miles Davis' "Kind of Blue" was released exactly in 1959, and Coltrane became its first major exponent with his own quartet, featuring McCoy Tyner on the piano. I don't know how much truth is to this, but in the 1980s I overheard that Emiliano Salvador and McCoy Tyner were pen pals. Whether it is true or not, we can definitely hear a lot of McCoy in Emiliano's playing. Emiliano died in 1992 at the age of 41.

Another remarkable Jazz band from that era was Afro-Cuba (not the folklore group from Matanzas).

I think, Paquito's autobiography could tell me more about that time, although already from 1980 on, he was no longer in Cuba.

Thomas
Last edited by Thomas Altmann on Sat Sep 18, 2021 11:07 am, edited 4 times in total.
Thomas Altmann
 
Posts: 812
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2006 12:25 pm
Location: Hamburg

Re: Emiliano Salvador record

Postby Thomas Altmann » Sat Sep 18, 2021 10:51 am

First, my post wasn't transmitted, then it came out twice. Another posting from 2011 was listed as "new post". I feel that something should happen with this forum, technically. Administrators?

Thanks, Thomas
Thomas Altmann
 
Posts: 812
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2006 12:25 pm
Location: Hamburg

Re: Emiliano Salvador record

Postby Siete Leguas » Sat Sep 18, 2021 11:43 pm

Hi Thomas,
Thomas Altmann wrote:There are situations where you have to temporarily suspend your own emotions to better serve the creative process of collective music making. Sometimes it is just work.

out of curiosity: as a professional musician, have you ever in your career had to play music that you (really) disliked? If so, how did you deal with it? "Suspend your emotions" is easier said than done!

I wanted to pose the question after reading your previous post, but then I forgot, sorry. After this, I promise to let the thread go back to the right direction that seems to be taking now. :) Thanks in advance!
SL

@jorge: Puerto Padre is nice!
User avatar
Siete Leguas
 
Posts: 166
Joined: Sun May 17, 2020 4:34 pm
Location: Alemania

Re: Emiliano Salvador record

Postby Thomas Altmann » Sun Sep 19, 2021 1:20 pm

Thomas Altmann
 
Posts: 812
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2006 12:25 pm
Location: Hamburg


Return to Books, Videos, CD and other stuff

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest