Have you ever had to play music that you (really) disliked?

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Have you ever had to play music that you (really) disliked?

Postby Thomas Altmann » Sun Sep 19, 2021 1:16 pm

Hi Thomas,

Thomas Altmann wrote:
There are situations where you have to temporarily suspend your own emotions to better serve the creative process of collective music making. Sometimes it is just work.

out of curiosity: as a professional musician, have you ever in your career had to play music that you (really) disliked? If so, how did you deal with it? "Suspend your emotions" is easier said than done!
...
SL


Hi Siete Leguas,

I decided to start a new thread with this question, because it deviates too far from the original topic. It touches the principles of professionalism, and it would be nice to have other members share their opinions, too.

1. If you are a professional musician, your likes and dislikes are secondary to what is good for the people out there: your audience.

It is the privilege of the amateur (fr.: the one who loves <what he is doing>), the aficionado (sp.: the enthusiastic), the dilettant (it.: the one who enjoys / is having fun with something) to evaluate and choose his/her activity by the amount of pleasure he gains for him-/herself. As soon as you take on a profession, you are going to perform a service for the community, and the society at a larger scale. You are there to invigorate, harmonize and enrich people spiritually, mentally, and even physically. Anything that is conducive to these ends, is what you are advised to do.

What is a great joy and a wonderful profession on the whole, may demand sacrifices and periods of writing, reading, counting, watching conductors and not listening too closely to what your bandmates are doing. This is often the fate of the big band drummer, for example. It isn't fun. Your fun starts when the gig is over, you see all the happy faces, and you know you have done a good job.

2. Being a professional musician means that your living and that of your family depends largely or exclusively on the income you achieve by making music.

Any musician who enjoys the luxury to earn enough money by playing his own music or only the music that he/she loves, is extremely fortunate. More commonly, you get calls for jingles (commercials), cheap pop songs, theatrical music and musicals, dinner music, dances and accompaniment for celebrations of all kinds (in addition to regular concerts). It is then up to you to decide whether you accept the gig or decline it (if you can afford it).

3. As soon as you agree to perform a concert or any type of musical service, it is your duty to do it, do it well, and with all your heart, from beginning to end.

It is a big advantage to have a broad taste, to like many styles of music, and to know what to do to make them happen. If I know that I have to play something that is not exactly my favourite music, I can still enjoy playing my instrument or serving the respective style appropriately. Hopefully then, the gig is paid well enough. Don't project that you are unhappy! The people in the audience don't want to see that, no musician in the band will ever hire you again, and you are giving yourself a hard time. Plus, you are likely to play the music in a bad or wrong manner. Finish the gig, get your money and be unavailable the next time they call you (if you can afford it).

The problem is that you don't always know what's coming up. You may find yourself thrown together with some impossible musicians who are spoiling the whole gig, even though it's your favourite style of music. Or the people who have booked the band turn out to be complete a..holes that treat you like rats. Or you find out at your arrival that no one has told you that you are supposed to play outdoor, and there is no tent or anything. I once drove more than 500 kilometers from Hamburg to Frankfurt for a well-paid gig, only to learn I was going to play for an event of the Scientology sect. What would you do?

Greetings,
Thomas
Last edited by Thomas Altmann on Mon Sep 20, 2021 1:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Have you ever had to play music that you (really) dislik

Postby Siete Leguas » Sun Sep 19, 2021 10:53 pm

Hi Thomas,

thanks for your insights in the profession, some of which I could have never imagined - what? unexpected Scientology events?!? :shock: I might need some time to digest some of the points that you made.

My perhaps naive, but in my eyes still legitimate question has to do with the apparent conflict between what you expressed in points number 2 and 3: having (more likely than not) to accept gigs that are far away from your personal artistic interests, but then also having to do the job well, with all your heart, from beginning to end. Given that, in my perception, playing music is a strong emotional/spiritual experience, I'm interested in the processes that a (professional) musician goes through in such situations. What you wrote in another thread about suspending your own emotions got me thinking, though I'm not sure I can fully grasp what you mean. I have some experience with meditation, that's the most relatable thing that I can think of, but probably quite different, too.

If somebody else, professional or not, wants to jump in, you are of course very welcome to do so.

Salud!
SL
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Re: Have you ever had to play music that you (really) dislik

Postby Thomas Altmann » Mon Sep 20, 2021 11:51 am

Playing music can be a strong emotional or spiritual experience, but it isn't always; if it is, the spiritual experience often appears on a different level than expected. Reading, counting and controlling your own part prevents you from indulging in your own feelings too much. When you are playing in a big band or any bigger orchestra, the sound and the movement that surround you are captivating and at times overwhelmingly beautiful. But in order to help this come out and reach the audience (which is the prime purpose), you just have to concentrate on your task within the organization and not get carried away. So that's when you have to suspend your own emotions, for instance. It is not unlike the ceremonial batá player who is well advised not to become possessed himself, because he is the one who navigates the whole show; possession is reserved for the santeros/-as out there ...

The same necessity can save your soul in situations where you have to play stuff you don't really like. Sometimes I subbed for dance gigs with bands that played everything from polkas and Viennese waltzes to Swing evergreens, oldies and Top-40-stuff, often combined in medleys, in the worst case with abrupt tempo changes between the individual sections. These engagements were mostly well-paid, but they lasted 6 to 7 hours, with short breaks between dancing units, but very few longer intermissions (which were reserved for taking a meal and changing costumes). The music itself was anything but fulfilling or enlightening, but in order to do the job I was hired for, I had to listen and watch, to read and to count and pay attention. That kept me busy enough, so I did not really become aware of what I was playing, but rather how I played it. To learn what it takes to play anything well under any conditions, no matter what it is, is one of the many experiences you gain from working professionally, and I'm afraid it must be experienced; it cannot be rationalized nor logically explained.

Another - definitely spiritual - experience is to merge the craft and methodology of music-making with the emotional and spiritual content of the music itself. Again, this seemingly impossible marriage of contraries can neither be explained nor understood theoretically. It is a popular but nevertheless wrong assumption that a skilled professional musician inevitably loses his/her feeling for music over the necessities of his trade. As a matter of fact, a musician who lacks emotion and/or spirit is not acknowledged as a peer by other, "real" musicians. That's our capital, and we have to preserve it carefully. Our spirit will show anyway, even - and especially - when our left brain hemisphere is active with counting, reading and watching. Moreover, most arrangements include free passages and solo spots for us. When and how to collect spiritual energy, how much, and what type of such energy, is as much a challenging mystery as its transformation and placement in the creative process. And it must be experienced and learnt in practice.

Thomas
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Re: Have you ever had to play music that you (really) dislik

Postby Chtimulato » Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:05 pm

Hello guys.

I jump in a little late, and I missed the discussion about jazz because of my procrastination (« I’ll do it later on... »), but I was a little bit busy those days. To avoid polluting Thomas’ new thread, let me just say «jazz» is a very versatile kind of music , and I like most of its ‘’family members’’. But de gustibus etc.

Let’s come to the subject.

out of curiosity: as a professional musician, have you ever in your career had to play music that you (really) disliked?


My answer is yes. For instance, I can’t stand bossa nova anymore, because I’ve played some till the indigestion. Most of the average jazzmen in France (those who play in pubs) only know 2 genres : be-bop and bossa nova. (BTW, did I tell you I have played a lot with jazzmen?). The only binary groove they know and can play is... bossa nova… And if you try to launch something different, either rock or something sounding ‘’exotic’’ (i.e. latin, caribbean or african – sorry for these hateful cliches), some of them are able to… fall in bossa nova again… This really happened to me. I remember once a kind of jam session in a bar, where someone launched this tune



and a (young) trumpet player couldn’t follow and ended up playing Girl from Ipanema instead of the original tune...
But in this case, it was a jam session, so I had the opportunity to leave the stage at any moment if I had wanted to.

Among other boring experiences, I also accompanied a Brasilian singer twice, a guy singing ''brasilian music'' (I mean what the French audience considers as ''brasilian music'', in fact, only bossa nova and slow sambas, let’s say "entertainment music" to define it exactly). It bothered me, but I tried not to show it. I believe the audience didn’t notice, though I looked at my watch after every tune. (I take off my bracelet and my watch when I play, and I tie it to my belt loop. It’s my ritual. So I believe the audience didn’t notice that. At any case, as Thomas declared somewhere, if you show you’re bored, you don’t get called again… :lol:

One other problem is when you can’t stand one (or several) of the musicians in the band. If the bass player, though very good, irritates you as soon as he arrives and begins to talk. Or if the singer is very, very good (at singing), but totally stupid in real life, so stupid that it’s unbearable. There again, either you don’t show how much you’re bored, or you build yourself a bad reputation, get considered as a contemptuous guy and don’t get called again, or only when nobody else is free, als « fifth wheel »… :lol:


Being a professional musician means that your living and that of your family depends largely or exclusively on the income you achieve by making music.

Fortunately (in my eyes), I’m not a professional musician and don’t earn a living with music. I’m playing in a steady band, can make some ‘’infidelities’’ from time to time by playing with other people, but in my regular band, we all are in the same situation (steady job, and music as fun beside). So we can accept and refuse gigs, it’s not a real problem for us. We ask to see the place (mostly pubs) where we could have to play, and if it’s not satisfying, to small, to lousy, etc., we refuse. If the bartenders are unkind, we refuse too. Because we can refuse. And this being said, we played once in a field on the countryside, on a pair of tractor trailers as a stage, because the place and the organising people were nice. Several of my professional friends are not so lucky, and have to play kinds of music they don’t like, or have to accompagny artists they don’t appreciate, to earn a living.

As soon as you agree to perform a concert or any type of musical service, it is your duty to do it, do it well, and with all your heart, from beginning to end.

Of course. It’s a job. It’s work. Work has to be well done, whatever it is. That’s a professional attitude. Figure out a joiner mounting a window in your flat or you house, or a plumber fixing your flush, and leaving the work half done. The audience must be respected.

That's all for today, folks, but the discussion has to be continued.

Here's a parenthesis : I like Emiliano Salvador and Gonzalo Rubacalba (another discussion I missed out of lack of time).
https://www.discogs.com/fr/artist/963605-Emiliano-Salvador
https://www.discogs.com/fr/search/?q=Gonzalo+Rubalcaba&type=all

A friend of mine brought some LPs of both of them from Cuba, and I taped them at the time. I believe I lost my cassettes after a removal.

Stay safe, everybody.
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Re: Have you ever had to play music that you (really) dislik

Postby Thomas Altmann » Tue Sep 21, 2021 6:08 pm

Hi Chtimulato,

Most of the average jazzmen in France (those who play in pubs) only know 2 genres : be-bop and bossa nova.


Reads pretty much like Hamburg 20 years ago. Meanwhile the situation has improved a bit, but before, and often even now, Jazz musicians used to throw in what they call a Latin number, which is a brew of everything and nothing at the same time. If they would at least play a Bossa Nova correctly, but not even that! Many don't care about the various styles of Latin music. Either they are not interested, or they are afraid to show their gigantic lack of knowledge. Sometimes when I was playing the drum set in a Jazz combo, a frontman would turn around to me and ask: What about a Latin tune? And I said, I'd be happy to play anything that we all can play. (No I wasn't fired.)

If the bass player, though very good, irritates you as soon as he arrives and begins to talk.


I knew a bass player who used to start talking to me while we were playing. I guess he thought that was super cool. He was a nice guy, and he could play well, however not well enough to talk along.

... but totally stupid in real life, so stupid that it’s unbearable.


I can tell that came from your heart :lol:

Fortunately (in my eyes), I’m not a professional musician and don’t earn a living with music ... (steady job, and music as fun beside) ...


That's a clever alternative, no question about it. I have known many amateurs who could play way better than many a so-called professional. My parents had suggested I should make it like that, but I wanted to live the life of a musician head on. Everybody has to make up his own mind. Leonard Bernstein was once asked by a disciple whether he thought he should become professional, whereupon the maestro replied: To this question the answer can only be, no!

You have mentioned personal reservations that can disturb the collective creative process. Or people who can't really play the music they are supposed to play. This can be more of a problem than stylistic preferences. After all, very little music is inherently bad or harmful. All folklore is - almost by definition - good music, for example. It's only up to us to be open enough to embrace the music and take care to play it the way it should be played.

So what about ourselves? We, too, can have a bad day! You may feel sick or you are ill with fever, or maybe you couldn't sleep well, or you just don't feel like going out to play. You don't even have to be a pro; if you have a gig that evening, you either care for a sub who will guarantee that you won't be missed, or you iron your shirt, shave, pack your equipment and show up - because if you don't, the rest of the band will be seriously in trouble. Needless to say that happened to me several times, too, and I "disliked" that much more than having to play Country & Western music :wink:

As much as I have written about music, musicians or performance situations I disliked (which I did according to 7Leguas' question), I might have left you with the impression that the life of a professional musician is a no-fun affair and eventually an arduous rote like any other job. Some pros might feel this way. I can only speak for myself saying that a good portion of the jobs that I had in my career was musically rewarding or even elevating. The financial compensation is another story, but we are not talking about that. We all had to go through some hard times in our lives, but as far as I am concerned, I do not regret my decision to be a professional musician.

Thomas
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Re: Have you ever had to play music that you (really) dislik

Postby Thomas Altmann » Tue Sep 21, 2021 6:09 pm

<->
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Re: Have you ever had to play music that you (really) dislik

Postby Siete Leguas » Tue Sep 21, 2021 10:13 pm

Hi guys, interesting contributions.

For me, "the music thing" has so far been and will probably stay at most a "side hustle", so I definitely fall under the category amateur/dilettant/etc. As such, I have participated (and still do, although that might change in the near future for work reasons) in some music projects that I enjoy for the most part, both at the musical and interpersonal level. However, there are some numbers that I don't feel comfortable playing. Not that I dislike them; it has to do with me more than anything, because I just couldn't figure out yet what I am supposed to play and don't feel confident with them. When we are playing them, I just want them to be over as soon as possible, but, of course, the opposite happens: it feels like they last forever - not nice.

On the other side, sometimes it is somebody else's fault. I recently had a gig as a conguero in a makeshift cumbia band. The leader messed it up at the beginning of "La pollera colorá", a song that I like very much and was looking forward to. I believe he started playing it in a minor key instead of major, and just went with it. Everyone in the band did their best to save the number, but it sounded horrible, and everybody in the audience looked disconcerted. Not sure if, in that situation, the professional thing to do would have been to make everybody stop (halfway into the song) and start again from the beginning, but being myself the least "professional" member of the band (most of the others are music university graduates/students), I lacked the confidence to do so. It was a dreadful feeling, anyway, and it just got worse with every bar.
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Re: Have you ever had to play music that you (really) dislik

Postby Thomas Altmann » Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:20 am

Hi Siete Leguas,

on a professional level, things like that wouldn't happen. Everybody makes a mistake sometimes, pros, everybody ... But anybody who doesn't have the ears to realize a mistake like this and rectify it immediately, say, within one or two bars, doesn't belong on a stage. A pro would hit a wrong chord with conviction, smile, and straighten it out at once, perhaps even with a short modulation to make it sound "right".

I would avoid getting in such a situation again. Mistakes just happen, but I find there is something like "wrong mistakes" that, if you would make them, disqualify you in an instant. Cluelessly staying on the wrong chord for the entire piece is such a wrong mistake. You are too musical for that.

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Re: Have you ever had to play music that you (really) dislik

Postby Siete Leguas » Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:39 pm

Hi Thomas,

I totally get your point, but, for me, at this point of my "career", it was actually a good experience, after all. It was my first time playing only cumbias on congas, and the show was put together within just a few days and with only one rehearsal with the band, so I was sure that it would be far from optimal, but I accepted because I didn't have much to lose. It turned out to be not too bad, given the circumstances, and I'm proud that we made it happen. I had fun (except for those minutes of suffering), got to meet some nice people and talented musicians, learned a few new songs and a couple of things on the congas, ate some delicious food and came home with money in my pocket. I wish it would happen more often! :)
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Re: Have you ever had to play music that you (really) dislik

Postby Thomas Altmann » Wed Sep 22, 2021 10:27 pm

Hi Siete Leguas,

that's perfectly cool. I consciously said what I would do, not what you should do, but I still think you deserve something better.

Talking about myself again, I often stayed for years with bands that had serious musical deficiencies and were just one degree above tolerable, because they helped me to survive. This doesn't mean everything to me, but I didn't take it for granted, either. I was with them as long as I could stand it, and that could take seven to ten years. Other people would have been either more or less patient than me.

Not too long ago, maybe five years or so, an old friend and fellow musician, whom I had not seen for long, called me to play a Dixieland gig with him in some suburb. I thought, why not, for old time's sake, and confirmed. It was all amateurs of the lowest level, but I didn't care. Only the banjo player had some extreme tempo problems, so I decided to dictate the time thing more rigidly, and everybody only needed to listen to me and hang in there. It was a shocking experience to realize that the banjo player couldn't even listen! He kept on rushing and dragging, with the rest of the band following him, not me, and myself playing separately for myself, basically.

That was a critical moment in my life. I realized that I could not make gigs like this anymore, even if I was willing and humble enough. And I happily said goodbye to my dark past.

Since the time my sons started earning their own money, I had begun to cut off engagements that had long been artistic brake pads for myself. It didn't make me rich, but it was an ethical necessity, if not an act of hygiene.

I understand that this is certainly not where you are at the present.

Thomas
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Re: Have you ever had to play music that you (really) dislik

Postby Siete Leguas » Fri Sep 24, 2021 11:40 am

Hi guys,

the youtube (/Big Brother?) algorithm suggested this video to me. In it, the very knowledgeable musician (mainly jazz bass player, I believe) and popular youtuber Adam Neely answers some questions from his viewers. From 1:26 to 3:37, he discusses the benefits of listening to music you don't like, which is somehow related to the topic of this thread.

I think he makes a fair point, although I'll probably stick to the music that I do like :).



A bit more OT: I also watched this other video of his, where he thoroughly analyses "The girl from Ipanema". Since Bossa Nova and that tune in particular came up in our discussion, I thought it could be of your interest, too. I found the video very entertaining and educational (despite my limited musical understanding). It is half an hour long, though.



Greetings,
SL
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Re: Have you ever had to play music that you (really) dislik

Postby Thomas Altmann » Fri Sep 24, 2021 2:36 pm

Thanks, SL!

This is fantastic. I will definitely pick up his advice to analyse why I don't like something, and his video on "Garota de Ipanema" is perfectly researched and clearly demonstrated. Some of the harmonic stuff is hard to understand for me, like substitution chords and reharmonisation; I just haven't studied it enough.

I've seen many musicians capsize when coming to the bridge or B-section in their impros - they enter with waving flags for the first 4 bars, then start to stumble in the second four, and lose their balance completely with the third. I'm glad that chord changes are nothing I have to care about, as long as I can follow the form. But if a tune is regarded a "standard", that doesn't mean it must be easy!

Good guy, Adam Neely ...

Thomas
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Re: Have you ever had to play music that you (really) dislik

Postby Siete Leguas » Sat Sep 25, 2021 7:59 am

Glad you liked it, Thomas.

By the way,
Thomas Altmann wrote: A pro would hit a wrong chord with conviction, smile, and straighten it out at once, perhaps even with a short modulation to make it sound "right".

I believe I once heard Adam Neely say something along these lines: If you make a mistake, you can just play the same mistake again intentionally; then it's no longer a mistake, it's just music. Repetition legitimizes.

:)
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Re: Have you ever had to play music that you (really) dislik

Postby Thomas Altmann » Sat Sep 25, 2021 10:27 am

Correct, that's what works sometimes, but you cannot legitimize just anything - unless the conditions, the premises or the context would change. Check out the following video:



Musicianship combined with wisdom.

Thomas
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Re: Have you ever had to play music that you (really) dislik

Postby Siete Leguas » Sat Sep 25, 2021 1:57 pm

Great anecdote! Having Miles Davis in the band is surely helpful.
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