Jazz Congas

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Re: Jazz Congas

Postby bongosnotbombs » Mon Dec 27, 2010 7:49 pm

Well fair enough David, but I never said anything about clave based rhythms for Orgy in Rhythm, I still think Orgy in Rhythm is a classic, now a classic of what exactly is open to debate. :wink: I love that album, but I admit it is not to everyone's taste, it's definitely a little far out for sure, certainly an experiment, that one and his album Holiday in Skins. Not so much a marriage of jazz and clave as, well, an orgy of rhythm. I'm sure Blakey didn't understand much about clave, Sabu certainly did.

Back in the 70s I swore I would never play swing tumbao again and focused exclusively on clave-based music. In the last couple of years however, my son has been playing jazz sax and I've been developing my swing tumbao in order to accompany him.


yeah, I hear that, sometimes that swung tumbao just feels so corny.
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Re: Jazz Congas

Postby davidpenalosa » Mon Dec 27, 2010 8:06 pm

bongosnotbombs wrote:David, . . . I never said anything about clave based rhythms for Orgy in Rhythm, . . .


Understood. I mentioned clave because the way I hear that record, the lack of clave-type phrasing is one of the reasons I think the project failed. That said, these type of discussions concerning the aesthetic merits of a particular musical experiment are extremely subjective. I don't think there is an objective right-or-wrong to be decided here. It clearly comes down to personal taste.
-David
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Re: Jazz Congas

Postby Quinto Governor II » Mon Dec 27, 2010 10:43 pm

Hey Percussionation,
Maybe you can get some ideas from this video. Some of the pros here may want to critique it for you.

http://www.youtube.com/user/rondoweiss# ... N3OTnRMcs0
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Re: Jazz Congas

Postby Dicemanb » Mon Dec 27, 2010 11:21 pm

....on how not to play congas.....
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Re: Jazz Congas

Postby congamyk » Mon Dec 27, 2010 11:32 pm

lol :D

I've messaged him before about his videos.
I told him his own style might work for him but that he shouldn't call his video a lesson.
He's a touchy fellow, still livin in the 50's.
He has a quirky approach and I like that crazy bongo he attached!

His technique is definitely New Zealand :roll:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqieCHmvCAY

Take note... he drops his clave knowledge all up on ya!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jF0ZIA4G_W8
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Re: Jazz Congas

Postby pcastag » Tue Dec 28, 2010 1:05 am

I like the way that quinto sounds though!
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Re: Jazz Congas

Postby davidpenalosa » Tue Dec 28, 2010 1:07 am

congamyk wrote:. . . still livin in the 50's. . . . His technique is definitely New Zealand


Kind of touching actually.
-David
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Re: Jazz Congas

Postby roberthelpus » Tue Dec 28, 2010 2:19 am

JohnnyConga wrote:Cal Tjader recorded over 80 albums(which I have) and there isnt any recording using what Is called a "swing tumbao"...on it..( maybe one if any)when he did Jazz it was straight up with no congas...Ray Baretto was the 'official' Conga session cat for Blue Note records, where he recorded with Wes Montgomery, Lou Donaldson and many other Jazz artists(at least over 500 recordings for Ray) and u can plainly hear Ray' "swing tumbao" or 'shuffle tumbao' however u want to describe it...chek my video here and see how I play it and the little inflections I throw in there here and there...I also agree with David that Art Blakely had no clue to clave or afro-cuban rhythms and relied heavily on Sabu Martinez to do that for him during those recordings..which I have all of them..very very few Jazz drummers in NY at that time even knew what clave was let alone understand the principles. that didnt happen until the 60's as more Cuban/Puerto Rican-Latin Jazz was being created..and even then it was all 3/2 clave...Rumba clave came years later...



OK, I give up :D 80 albums wow.
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Re: Jazz Congas

Postby bengon » Wed Dec 29, 2010 4:20 am

I usually shy away from playing congas in straight ahead jazz. I don't think it makes sense to just play a swung tumbao throughout a entire song. In salsa, congas provide rhythmic drive; this isn't the case in jazz. The drumset takes up what is essentially any space a conga player would normally fill. Between the swinging ride or hats and comping with the snare (among a million other jazz drumset roles) it doesn't really leave much space for a percussionist to play.

Guys have done it, and done it well, but it doesn't make sense to me. When bands I'm playing in do a jazz tune, I take my cue for a beer.

Latin Jazz, on the other hand, I'll play all day and night.
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Re: Jazz Congas

Postby Percussination » Wed Dec 29, 2010 5:37 pm

I just watched a Jaco DVD I had that was Peter Erskine on drums and Don Alias on congas. I noticed that more jazzy tunes, where Erskine was playing busy combo-style jazz, Don was using the congas in a very melodic way, rather than a rhythmic way.

This really opened my eyes to playing jazz congas. You have different pitches, so use em! It's really something special, the way he plays.

Check it out if u guys can. The song was called "Mr. Fonebone" on the "LIVE AND OUTRAGEOUS" dvd that just made my jaw drop.
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Re: Jazz Congas

Postby Percussination » Sat Jan 01, 2011 7:53 pm

To start the new year, my friends and I began playing Take Five at soon as the TV countdown went to 0. I was on bongos, and realized that, especially in a song like that, with the piano and bass all playing much more rhyhmic/groove roles as opposed to comping, I used the bongos to comp. Interacting with the soloist (after he finished kissing his girlfriend), not being too busy but creating another layer.
It worked well.

Latin percussion can be used to comp. :D
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Re: Jazz Congas

Postby Ernesto Pediangco » Wed Feb 09, 2011 8:16 am

In Jazz settings, I would say the root rhythm feel would dictate the rhythm lock & variations. Not all jazz / Latin Jazz is about Mambo & Cha Cha Cha feels or any other Cubanesque groove. Brasilian , Peruvian, Middle Eastern & North African rhythms are all higly developed from dance / rhythm cultures where add lid playing is common. I am blown away with Afro Peruvian & Peruvian Criolla rhythms & overall musicianman ship, as I am with Brazilian ! Paulinho & Airto had great rhythms for jazz varieties ! Patato Valdex was an incredibly melodic player for Jazzy styles. Armando Peraza & Francisco Aguabella were very pioneering in Latin Jazz & other fusions with thier Cuban roots & Mambo band & fusion latin Rock days in California. So was Victor Pantoja ! So many good examples out there. Variety is the spice of life ! We could name hundreds of great examples. The thing is ~ to listen to many good examples of various jazz styles that are fused with other ethnic styles for a bigger global outlook on music & rhythms over all and internalize the love of these fusion styles and apply your own musicianmanship to whatever music style you play. Thats JAZZ my brother !
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Re: Jazz Congas

Postby JohnnyConga » Wed Feb 09, 2011 5:44 pm

Here is a rare look at conga player Ramon Lopez with the Stan Kenton Jazz orchestra....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKgKRf7APFc


And listen to the late great Lee Pastora on Congas with Billy Cobham from the 70's...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2tNB-tQjiE

I knew Lee and he was from Argentina and had a twin brother that also played ..Lee was the conga player with the Don Ellis Orch. and could play in a lot of different odd time signatures

listen to the 'swing' in this style of playing....
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Re: Jazz Congas

Postby JohnnyConga » Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:58 pm

Lee Pastora...at a jam session in L.A. back in 1976...he is in the blue shirt with the red hair..

Lee Pastora.jpg
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Re: Jazz Congas

Postby No.2-1820 » Thu Feb 10, 2011 12:40 am

Wow, Ramon Lopez doesn't take any prisoners !! :-)
Love it.
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