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I have being wondering if you guys have problem playing with guys or listening to music from different political and/or Religious Beliefs.

The other day I was talking to this older guy and because I was listening to some Omara Portuondo's songs and other Cubans artist and he said that they are in favor of Castro so if I listen to that music I am in favor of him too.
I think that is a little extreme, I listen music from Willie Chirino, Gloria Estefan, does that mean I hate Castro?
I just like to listen good music period. In other perspective Afro-Cuban music is full of Religion and Faith, what about playing in a Rumba with Batas and signing Yorubas songs, if a guy wants to join you but he does not believe in God or have different Religious beliefs will you turn him down?
If i have a chance to play with any singer or musician I personally do not mind they beliefs.
Unless they are of course some Nazi-Racist Child-molester Crazy people, which it would probably never happen because they will not be playing this music anyway.

What is your take on that?


DJBakan

Observe, Respect & Enjoy.
The religious side is touchy, you are required to have understanding of how it all works and what it means, what its origins/intention is (reference to Bata etc), why is it being played etc.
As long as its done with respect and understanding of it without blasphemising and distortion then its fine.

I am often called in to perform at Santero's house for rumbas and their Oricha bday etc, though I am not initiated, I have studied, understand and respect at all times.
Performing for the Oricha does not automatically make me a Santero. I am still Roman Catholic, however I have been deeply involved in Afro Cuban religious practice & customs, myself having consulted Babalawo on several occassion and also having my unoffical 'madrina'.
Though for specific certain aspects initiation is required.

With my rumba group, we often adapt and mix bata with tumbadoras/congas, its done with understanding and respect overall. Thats the most important thing in my opinion.

Id say the guy you spoke to just has narrow and strong opinions regarding music and the politics of its country of origin.
Just because you enjoy listening to Cuban music, be it Son, Timba, Songo, Rumba/Folkloric etc does not automatically make you a Communist/Socialist/Castro supporter.

Its like the people who protested and were trying to stop people from going in to the Miami concert of Los Van Van, man, let the people enjoy the music.

I thought my original post was comical and true to how I feel but I removed it to respect this discussion which is turning philosophical. I am agnostic and have been due to my personal upbringing and exposure to religion. I think Politics and Beliefs have nothing to do with drumming in a core sense, in my perfect world. Drumming is an art and can be very spiritual in your own world without undo influence from other people trying to control you. It is the ultimate form of cohesiveness which creates beautiful atmosphere's and sounds even though el salidor is played by a person who follows Hindu, the segundo by a Muslim and the quinto by a Santero. I believe in the purity of music and if there is any reference to politics or religion I do not mind unless it is buttered down in a suave double meaning oozing flavor and even then it is difficult for the average listener to discern. I cringe from staunch advocates who impose their belief in the context of a pick up type of event, even though I don't know from experience because I am the unknown conga student, I just know it is out of place. Of course like minded people will form and feed off each others political passions and that is their right but if someone is "blind dating" a drumming event they need to be open to anything or simply don't come.

I live in the southeast. Asheville, NC to be precise. There are alot of people here who are very religious. I have been judged by these people more than a few times for playing drums. Back when I played djembe, and now on the congas too. I mostly try to remember that they don't understand. Last week there was a group of drummers downtown. They were singing "Fanga", a song I know from Baba Olatunji. The song is an invocation welcoming all the spirits. They asked if anyone else knew any songs. I offered up an Elegua song, and one guy said it was against his religion to sing about other spirits. I tried to explain that the song he was just singing, Fanga, was also about other spirits. He didn't understand and got very angry.

He didn't understand and got very angry.

Thanks, goingquinto: This statement sums up best the mental condition of all those people who are hindering spiritual evolution and bringing hell to Earth eventually, no matter what religion, political attitude or ideology they follow.

However, each religion, political party, etc. has as well practitioners who represent high moral and humanistic values; people who try to be as positive and ethical as their respective system was intended to be.

I agree completely with what Abakua recommended.

Once I discussed the subject of this thread with a fellow musician, when an American woman who had overheard our conversation joined in and insisted that everybody would just do any job if it was only paid well enough. I objected, feeling that there are certain limits beyond monetary compensation; but I also remembered that I had already played two gigs that I would have rejected, if my economical situation had allowed it: There are quite a few organisations in our society that are formally legal but nevertheless unethical (in my view).

It was about 20 years ago that I was booked for a gig at the Buchmesse (book fair) in Frankfurt, some 500 km south from my town. When the band finally arrived for the soundcheck, it turned out to be a gig for the Scientology sect, an organisation that I would personally never support with my music. But we had travelled for 5 hours with 7 or 8 people who needed the money (which was fairly decent), and our bandleader, an American trombone player, swore that he had not known for whom we were supposed to play. To make the story short: We played the goddam gig.

Generally I'm trying to avoid situations like this. And I know I have already dispensed with a lot of money and prestige by turning down gigs that were not clean.

Thomas

Alafia Abures Mi!
I hope that you are all well and abundantly blessed!

Let me share a recent experience with you, which may or may not apply to this thread, but here goes.
Last Saturday, my daughter and I had just come home from running some errands, when right behind us was an old pick-up truck pulling up. We had pulled into our garage, but the truck had stalled and stopped right out in front of my house. Always being cautious, I immediately sent my babygirl inside and kept my eye on the trucks driver. It turned out to be an elderly man, 70 plus years old, his truck wasn't too much younger. He had trouble with his engine starting after it had stopped. I offered my assistance, and my babygirl, seeing that things were alright, came out with a glass of water for the elderly gentleman. I asked her to get him a chair and we placed it in the shade of our paraiso tree (it was bumping 100 degrees outside).

We couldn't get his truck started, but he contacted a friend of his with a tow truck to come and take him home. In the mean time, he immediately began talking politics with me. He was an old Anglo man who had been on this planet for 70 plus years and the years were evident on his face. He continued to blast our current President, Obama and illegal aliens. His claim was that Obama was not an American, so on and so on. The conversation was going in a direction that I didn't too much care for, but while he was talking, I began thinking....... Man is always trying to control his world, to dominate his environment, building houses, fences, borders and filling it in with what is "acceptable" to him. This man, old as he was, had seen 70 plus years of changes, being born in a time when Anglos were the dominant ethnicity (exercised by forceful fear tactics to control the minority populations during that era), he was raised in the South, and has OBVIOUSLY seen his world coming apart. What I realized about this elderly gentleman was that his words were based on fear, which nurtured hate and yet, I could only feel compassion for him. We gave him a glass of cold water to cool his thirst, a comfortable chair to rest his weary bones, and the shade of a very spiritually rejuvenating tree to comfort himself in.

Despite his words and conversational rants, he received no fuel from me to keep his fire of hate burning, I merely offered kindness and compassion. At some point, either in his short time left, or mine on this planet it will make a difference. Our opposing view points are necessary to help us understand and clarify the positions we assume while here, whether political, spiritual or religious. We all have the choice of either accepting this fact, or burying our heads in the sand and giving into the hate/anger that rises from ignorance. I, for one have fallen victim to this in my lifetime, and may do so again however, I will do so with this understanding that it does serve a purpose and it's up to me to determine what that purpose is. I will learn more from someone with an opposing viewpoint, than I will from someone with like ideas. The "What If's" are necessary to grow without the stinging points of "I Told You So!"



This is my viewpoint, and is not intended to anger my brothers and sisters on this forum, so take it with a grain of salt.

Many blessings!

Onile!

DJBakan wrote:I have being wondering if you guys have problem playing with guys or listening to music from different political and/or Religious Beliefs.

The other day I was talking to this older guy and because I was listening to some Omara Portuondo's songs and other Cubans artist and he said that they are in favor of Castro so if I listen to that music I am in favor of him too.
I think that is a little extreme, I listen music from Willie Chirino, Gloria Estefan, does that mean I hate Castro?
I just like to listen good music period. In other perspective Afro-Cuban music is full of Religion and Faith, what about playing in a Rumba with Batas and signing Yorubas songs, if a guy wants to join you but he does not believe in God or have different Religious beliefs will you turn him down?
If i have a chance to play with any singer or musician I personally do not mind they beliefs.
Unless they are of course some Nazi-Racist Child-molester Crazy people, which it would probably never happen because they will not be playing this music anyway.

What is your take on that?


DJBakan

I had the pleasure of hanging about and playing / studying with some great players in Cuba . Some of them were santeros and some werent , however all of them played bata in either secular or sacred situations . Some said they didnt become omo ana because it was alot of work and you couldnt have sex for days before important ceremonies etc .Very funny conversation actually Some of them seemed to be pro castro and some were seriously anti castro , but all played together no problem ! I have done lots of gigs over the years for multi national companies who i wouldnt have a lot of love for tbh , but the mortgage needs to be paid . However i would draw the line , just not sure where ?

goingquinto wrote:Fanga, was also about other spirits. He didn't understand and got very angry.

Mr. Quinto and I played a gig at a NewAgey spot in the hills of Boulder where a similar thing happened. Our lead singer refused to sing any songs of the Orisha, though she was willing to sing a song about an Orisha.. It just was in the context of a Rumba song rather than a Bembe.

A few days ago, the dance teacher we're working with asked if I would share some of the songs with her. She was thinking of teaching them to her dance students. I said, "sure".
Then, I said, "The way this could work is, you let me know when you decide to teach let's say Oya, or Ochun,, then I could e-mail you the lyrics".
She replied, "Oh,,, well, I have to travel to Cuba first, because I can't be sharing these Orisha dances until I do the visit."
I asked if she had to be initiated, and she answered, "not necessarily, I just feel that I need that visit before I feel right about it in my own mind to be teaching these religious aspects."

I fully understand and respect that people feel they need to go through certain steps before breaking new ground.
I'm sure it comes from the place of respect and wanting to carry on a worthy tradition by making yourself as worthy as possible first, before sharing with others, and in her case charging money for it.

-snip-

On the other side of this is the jumping in, learning songs because you like the sound of them, and then suddenly realizing that you know a PILE of material, and wonder,, why am I doing this? Why not country music, or creating stuff in my own language? What would my grandmother think if she were alive? OMG I've been brainwashed by hooligans!

Is it Okay?
I don't know,, I have no justification whatsoever..

Well for me, I don't sing orisha songs, and I avoid saying any of the names of any as well. That's against my religion. I'll hang around when those songs are being sung, and I'll play the drums for people singing those songs, and I'll learn the rhythms, but I won't sing those songs at all. That's where my religion butts up against the music. That's my personal line I try not to cross. The people I play with, some are santeros, and lots of them sing know and sing orisha songs. I just play the drums and don't sing. Rumbas and coros I sing, orisha songs I don't.

Because of my faith I don't play bata or sing any songs with mention of Orishas.
It isn't an issue as I don't care for the sound or the feel of bata - just a personal thing.
As for bembes I will play but not sing.

When I play - I play for the Creator that I know and have in my heart.
I respect other's beliefs and they seem to respect mine.

Brother Onile I appreciate the way that you handled that situation.
You and your daughter made the world a better place to live in that day!
I'm sure the older man has seen many changes in his day that has made his world spin or seem to be out of control.
Not making excuses for him or any behavior that he may have displayed.
Only want to thank you for being a kind person who made a bad situation better because of your grace.

I'm not religious; I think all religions are just superstitious nonsense. Don't mean to offend anyone but we're exploring all beliefs here so there's mine (or lack thereof).

I've never sung an orisha but I've sung Handel's Messiah... no problem, it's a good piece of music. I've also sung songs about Santa Claus, witches, and magic dragons.

I prefer associating (including making music) with people who keep their religion and politics to themselves. These are divisive issues and drumming with other people is for me about unity.

The internet, music, and this site are all great melting pots where politics and religion can come together in the core of the human spirit. You've got to love it!
I actually went back and edited my anti-religious comment out of respect for my religious brothers.
We all have our belief system. Some feel a need to speak strongly. To honor their core beliefs and/or their traditions.
I'm a taoist, in that I believe strength is derived not from protecting myself or defining separations or limitations, but from the openness to accept all situations.
May we all evolve spiritually....

Well said Onile...
A quote for you...

"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err."
Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi

The appeal to me of Afro-Cuban, Latin, as well as all Afro-diasporic music has always been the rhythmic interplay of all the elements.
Being a non-native fumblingly fluent Spanish speaker, most of the time I’m not too concerned with whatever the message of words it may contain, be it religious or political.
While I enjoy the melodic interplay the vocals may add, the content of the message generally has no bearing on my enjoyment, though I do make an effort to understand the lyric content.

I listen to and enjoy a lot of Brazilian and African recorded music, and have no idea, nor concern with what they are saying, because I don't speak their languages. I do know I like their rhythms.
I know my enjoyment or understanding of the context of the piece would be enhanced by knowing the meaning of the lyrics, but that's all right...that's my shortcoming...a call to knowledge.

I’ve learned to sing a couple of Ellegua incantations, while drumming, because I enjoy the melodics and the interplay with clave and drum patterns. While I respect and have made an effort to understand the tradition, and to get the lyric pronunciations correct, I’m not necessarily calling for “Divine Utterances”, and neither do I feel as if I am “dissing” it by performing my interpretation.

Another quote
"Religions are different roads converging to the same point. What does it matter that we take different road, so long as we reach the same goal. Wherein is the cause for quarrelling?"
Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi

Re politics:
Having stated above regarding how I relate to lyric content in foreign language songs, when I first started collecting Afro-diasporic music CD’s, I bought a CD titled “Carnaval in Cuba” (Ethnic Folkways Records FE 4065).

The CD contains live Carnaval performances in Havana and Santiago de Cuba in 1980.
There was on track on the CD titled “Los Hermanos Izquierdo” that really grabbed me.
It’s an absolutely swingin’ piece.

A quote from the CD Booklet:
“This song exemplifies the hypnotic character of many Cuban songs. The melody is repeated over hundreds of times, but is never boring, because of the rhythmic invention. This song actually lasted over an hour! The “vamp” as it would be called in American popular music, is called a montuno in Cuban music.”

I was so enthralled with the swinging nature of the song that I played it for a Cuban friend of mine.
Much to my embarrassment, he was completely appalled at the song, and we couldn’t finish the listen.
I had to go back and read the booklet to realize why.
It turns out that the lyrics(which are in CD booklet) of that 1980’s Carnival song are overt, in your face, lambastings of those who departed Cuba in the 1980 Mariel boatlift.

The coro of the song:
“Que’ Se Vaya La Escoria!” = “Let The Scum Leave!”

Needless to say, ever since I’ve been a bit more cognizant of lyrical content.
I still enjoy the driving rhythmic nature of that particular song.

Religion and politics......a combustible mix…..and cause of most our troubles here on earth.


Peace

congamyk wrote:Because of my faith I don't play bata or sing any songs with mention of Orishas.
It isn't an issue as I don't care for the sound or the feel of bata - just a personal thing.
As for bembes I will play but not sing.

When I play - I play for the Creator that I know and have in my heart.
I respect other's beliefs and they seem to respect mine.

Brother Onile I appreciate the way that you handled that situation.
You and your daughter made the world a better place to live in that day!
I'm sure the older man has seen many changes in his day that has made his world spin or seem to be out of control.
Not making excuses for him or any behavior that he may have displayed.
Only want to thank you for being a kind person who made a bad situation better because of your grace.

As much as i respect you right not to play bata or sing orisha songs i cant help but feel that your missing out on some amazing music . What a massive void there would be in my life if i didnt have the music of Santeria . Im not initiated but i am very interested in the religion , have had readings done in mantanzas by a babalao . The music for me is mind blowing stuff ..

NG I appreciate what you're saying, as for "missing out" I don't feel that I'm missing out on anything.
I have an infinite number of things to listen to and learn from from, whether it's Brazil, Cuba, Jazz, funk, Gospel, etc.
Pandeiro alone is a lifetime of study.
One cannot devote himself to every single thing, so we make choices.

As for Santeria, one cannot thoroughly study our instrument without understanding it's roots.
I've studied Santeria enough to know that it is diametrically opposed to my Christian faith, enough said.
I won't make some shallow cheap-shot like some here have about Christianity - which they probably know nothing about.
I enjoy rumba and am supportive of all congueros.
Thanks to all those that have been tolerant in this thread.

Regarding music, I could say to someone, "unless you listen to (and absorb, learn) American Black Gospel music - you are missing out."
Or what about classical music, bluegrass, or zydeco, R&B....
One cannot devote himself to every single thing, so we make choices.
Flames on one set of drums... furniture finish on another... dents and scratches on another set... fiberglass... almas... it's all good!