Rumba and clave

[bongosnotbombs]

Am understanding this correctly? What you guys play during a rumba is not influenced by the song at all?

What I meant was I don't change the feeling from 3/2 or 2/3 or anything like that. I'm not even thinking about those kind of
abstract things when playing in an open rumba. What I play is certainly influenced by the singer and song, for example,
I'm not going to unleash a clave long lick of open notes on the low drum while the singer is singing a verse. That would just be
rude. Same as for the the quinto and tres dos. And like you describe, when I'm on quinto I try to avoid playing on top of the other drums
as well. Usually I play call/response variations rather sparsely until the montuno, where I may open up a little more.

[Thomas Altmann]

Am understanding this correctly? What you guys play during a rumba is not influenced by the song at all?

Hi Barry,

thanks for joining the discussion. I was referring to a batá/bembé situation here. In a rumba, I stick to the clave whenever I am playing the standard quinto ride or "waiting/comping pattern" and its variations. As I said, I am even less experienced in rumba than in Lukumí music. But whenever I had the chance, I was keeping back during the canto or estrofa section, confining myself to the ride and occasional comments between song phrases. I used to free up in the estribillo and soloed in spaces announced by the singer. I think I played for a dancer only once or twice in my entire career, and I tried my best to follow rather the dance (than the song).
Typically, in most situations (over here in Europe) I was selected to play the quinto.

There are also toques/cantos in batá where I want to play conversations or inventos in certain spots or passages during the song/tratado. I have to listen to the singer when I am in the position to initiate changes at the right time. But during those long Nyongo/Chachálokpafún passages, I just can't do that. I don't know about other drummers, but I just have to concentrate on my part.
The change from Nyongo to Chachálokpafún can be tricky sometimes, but this change does not depend on the song exclusively.

Thomas

[guarachon63]

I know, I was sure I was wrong, but I kept trying to read it the way I thought it was meant and couldn't do make it work. That whole thing with clave orientation 3-2/2-3 in rumba I find totally useless, I think David's right, in band/popular stuff it comes in handy but otherwise, meh!

saludos!
Barry

[davidpenalosa]

Hi Cadenza,
Do you know the different types of traditional Cuban music the science major/musician examined? Was it specifically rumba? What do you mean by "the ambiguous root of clave?" I can understand the term ambiguous being applied to particular performances of clave, but not the structure of clave ("root?").

Computer analysis of clave performances certainly reveals subtle nuances. Congaboard member James has a great webpage on the subject:

http://rumbaclave.blogspot.com/

What Mike Spiro has aptly dubbed fix is found in North American jazz, Cuban rumba and Brazilian samba. However, there are also examples of "straight" triple-pulse and duple-pulse musics in Cuba. Iyesá for instance. Also, there are plenty of "straight" rhythms in Africa itself.

The rumba aesthetic is one particular rhythmic approach within myriad clave-based rhythms. To me one of the most extreme expressions of the rumba aesthetic is the arrangement in some Matanzas columbias where both the 4/4 cascara and the 6/8 standard bell pattern are played simultaneously. I have yet to encounter an African analogue to that extreme use of simultaneous triple and duple-pulse strokes.

As far as writing the music in Western notation, many musics have subtle nuances in their performance that are only approximated on paper. It is understood that the written music has certain inherent limitations. If a professional pianist were to perform Chopin strictly as written, with no "feel," it would be considered a sterile performance.

The same is true of course in the performance of jazz, where professional musicians who rely heavily on reading also understand the unwritten "feel" required to play the music correctly.

I think I’ve mentioned this before, but African musicians do not have a problem with writing their music down. To quote African musician/scholar Dr. Kofi Agawu:

"It is noteworthy that the debate about the appropriateness of staff ["Western"] notation for African music is a subject of particular interest to outsiders, not insiders. African scholars from Kyagambiddwa to Kongo have for the most part accepted the conventions - and limitations – of staff notation and gone on to produce transcriptions in order to inform and to make possible a higher level of discussion and debate" (Agawu 2003:52).

That said. I can appreciate how you have had to "relearn a lifetime of musical teaching." This musical journey continues to challenge me. The subject of "fix" and related "feels" is indeed fascinating.
-David

[taikonoatama]

The name James sounds familiar – it may have been him who was in Victoria, the date from the blog looks about right. James, if I in anyway inaccurately referenced you let me know – obviously my post is for conversation purposes and not intended to be a literary reference for a published paper or anything.

Cheers,
Cadenza

Hey,

Although I've been to both Victoria, Australia and Victoria, BC, Canada, it's been a more than a few years - you must be thinking of someone else.

Cheers,

James (http://rumbaclave.blogspot.com/)

[burke]

The whole 'fix' concept is so difficult for me to wrap my head around. I'm ok with 6/8 as a bodhran/celtic player [cup a tea, cut a tea, cup a tea] and 4/4 no problem for anyone. But 'fix' baffles me (as presented by Mr. Spiro). I suspect its all connected with 12/8 in some fashion (and I know I may be incorrect here), but can anyone give me a familiar non-cuban example of a 12/8 tune? I guess I'm after some familiar tune or example that would be common to many people ... an "oh yeah" that's what you mean" kind of tune.

[windhorse]

Last night we played Makuta, and when I'm playing bell, I'll naturally move from duple to triple from a Tresillo stretched or shifted into a 3 pulse.
It's so easy to shift back and forth that it makes me wonder about a historical link with clave.

[davidpenalosa]

. . . it makes me wonder about a historical link with clave.

The historical link between clave and tresillo or between clave an the six-beat cycle, or. . . ?
-David

[windhorse]

What I mean is,, it's quite natural for the tresillo to shift into 3. Clave is slightly more complex, so I wonder if tresillo shift preceded clave shift in a natural progression. Since tresillo is in clave.
A chicken before the egg, or vice versa question.

[davidpenalosa]

Hi Dave,
I think it is indeed a "chicken-or-the-egg" type of question. Although as a player you may shift from duple to triple-pulse, from a generative (or theoretic) point of view, triple-pulse patterns are simulated in duple-pulse, not the other way around. Every triple-pulse pattern has a duple-pulse correlative. Shifting from a duple-pulse pattern to its triple-pulse correlative is a matter of shifting to the pattern's fundamental form.
-David

[Congadelica]

Im enjoying this thread so much . I found this video were western Jazz music is played with African Percussion ensenble .
on the page scroll down to the title video" How The Music Was Made: Collaborations Trailer"

http://www.yacubaddy.com/audiovideo.html
interesting the way the 2 groups work toghether .

[jaemacho]

Playing rumba with Cubans (at least in NYC and NJ), if someone crosses the clave, the response of the rumberos is usually instantaneous. It can range from someone showing the offending person the correct part for a bar or two on a drum that was playing another part, to singing the correct part, to a dirty look, to yelling to a friend to get the guilty person off the drum, to standing up and stopping the song to regroup and get someone who can play in clave to replace the person who went off clave. I have seen fights break out over a crossed clave. Cuban rumberos take clave VERY seriously, and almost never ignore it if someone goes off. Sometimes if there are 2 people playing who in the past have had questionable timing, the wrong one gets blamed. In fact the timing between 2 instruments is relative and it is often very hard to tell who messed up, so many good drummers won't even play with people who they think might go off clave, so as not to be associated with bad rumba. This is a harsh but time tested and legitimate way to teach people to play in clave. In fact, I haven't seen a better way (although we could do without the threats of physical violence). Does anyone else know a better way (that works) to learn to play rumba in clave?[/quote]


LOL! This is so hilariously true. I think the only time it really gets physical is when the person not playing right refuses to get up or gets offended. And I'm 100% sure the booze and drugs often involved has alot to do with it.

[bongosnotbombs]

I read in Afro-Cuban Bata Drum Aesthetics by Kenneth Schweitzer, that Pancho Quinto told the author,

if you make any mistakes, don't show it in your face. And if the entire ensemble falters because of the mistake, quickly blame another player.

Good solid advice!

[windhorse]

And now for the big metaphysical post on clave - and music in general. One of our favorite topics of late, and it came up yesterday at our Sat. practice:

We did a clapping exercise playing 12/8 bell pattern
x-x-xx-x-x-x, and someone else plays the alternate hocket pattern -o-o--o-o-o-.
The second pattern is "2-3" clave. The "practice" is more than just playing the parts, it's feeling each one as as upbeats and also as downbeats.. Very trippy!
It turns out that the first pattern is any major scale.. The white keys on a keyboard coincide with a 12/8 cuban bell hit percussively from left to right, with black keys forming the hocket. So, with the black keys, the hocket (space) between the white notes is clave!!..

Then, we discussed how the periodic table wraps around with groups having common behavioral attributes as every eighth one.
Hydrogen at. #1, then Helium at. #2 are like the big downbeats on big One.
and elements starting with Lithium #3, then Beryllium #4, and skipping transition metals to column 13-18 fill the remaining 8 valence electrons in order, and the table wraps around again to make another period of 8. And every element in each group of a column repeats a similar behavior to the one above. Thus, the elements are organized in Octaves!

OMG,, what's up with our reality?? Clave is natural!

[davidpenalosa]

OMG,, what's up with our reality?? Clave is natural!

Concerning the Pythagorean theorem (the basis of European harmony and African rhythm):

“These symmetries are imposed on them by the nature of the space we live in; the three dimensions, the flatness within which we live and no assembly of atoms can break that crucial law of nature. They could not have any but the symmetries we have shown here. That is, rotation through twice, four times, three times or six times, but not more and not five." - Jacob Bronowski, "Music of the Spheres," The Ascent of Man, 1973.

African cross-rhythm in geometric form: