Rumba and clave

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Re: Rumba and clave

Postby davidpenalosa » Sat Jan 23, 2010 8:43 pm

Thomas Altmann wrote: . . . here goes my question: Are there songs in Rumba that cannot be clearly defined as being in either 3-2 or 2-3 clave, the same as in Lukumí music? And does the clave change sometimes during that first ("verse") section of a rumba in shorter periods, too? As a result: Is the consideration of a dualistic clave orientation (either 3-2 or 2-3) in folkloric Rumba inappropriate or even pointless? (Greetings to David!)


Greeting Thomas,
It depends what criteria you use to define 3-2/2-3. I do not use 3-2/2-3 to identify where in clave a part enters, or where in clave an onbeat accent occurs. I use 3-2/2-3 to identify the side of clave where the first beat of the harmonic progression occurs.

If you are asking specifically about rumba songs (excluding orisha coros that have been adopted into rumba), the case can be made that the melodies imply a harmonic structure. That seems like a clear contribution from European harmony. For example, the diana section of "Ave Maria morena" implies a simple I-V progression beginning on the three-side. From the perspective of its implied harmonic structure, the diana is in 3-2.

I don’t think that relating to the diana in 3-2 is pointless. If that melody is arranged in a band context (like Cachao and others have done), relating to the melody in 3-2 is helpful. In In fact, for me, using the 3-2, 2-3 concept in the context of popular band music is essential.

I am not aware of a rumba song that shifts from one side of clave to the other during the verse section. From the harmonic perspective the diana section in "Ave Maria morena" is 3-2, while the coro section is 2-3.
-David
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Re: Rumba and clave

Postby bongosnotbombs » Sat Jan 23, 2010 9:14 pm

The singer can start to sing almost anywhere, but that does not change that beat to the 1.


This is important sentence for me. Does it mean the "feel of the one" stays the whole song on the three side?


I often found it more advisable to eclipse the song and its clave orientation, because my position and my activity in the drumming department requires to function more or less independently from the song placement. I have to play and answer the same calls in the same correct rhythmic position in either (or should I say: each?) clave. I have to play my variations of the bembe caja in the same clave position in 3-2 as in 2-3 or in any in-between clave relation of a song. I cannot care about the singer's choice of song (and its respective clave orientation) all the time while I'm playing. That's the practical inside situation, no matter whether you can come later and listen to a recording from the outside and say, this is in clave 2-3, or whatever. And besides, sometimes you just can't tell.


I feel the same as Thomas does here. Actually playing at an open rumba one never knows how many singers they are going to play for, what songs they are going to sing, so the salidor and tres dos play off of each other and the clave. I don't know what you mean by "feel" of the one". The one, to me is always where it is; the first hit of clave. Always. I myself, and perhaps I am limited, I don't change that. Certainly one guaguanco will feel different according to the song being sung to it, and where that song begins, however I, when sitting behind a drum can't change the "feel of the one" for one singer, then for the next singer, then change again when there is no singing and the quinto is soloing, then change again when the quinto backs down, then change again during the montuno, and change again when perhaps only the coro is singing, and then change again when it is just dancers and no singing. I myself have never done that, never seen it done and never heard of it being done. Actually I couldn't do it even if I tried. And I assume this would make it very confusing for any dancers.

Even when I sing coro, the beginning of the verse is not the one, even if the coro begins somewhere else. Just because a verse of song begins on a beat that is not the first hit of clave, does not make that beat the one. The song does not supercede the clave. However, I do agree that a song that may begin on the bombo for example, creates a different rhythmic feeling than one may begin on the first hit of clave.
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Re: Rumba and clave

Postby jorge » Sat Jan 23, 2010 9:18 pm

David,
I agree that Cuban musicians I have met, especially rumberos, don't conceptualize clave using the 3-2 vs 2-3 distinction. Non-Cuban American (North, Central, and South) and European musicians have found the concept helpful in learning to play Cuban style music, and it is a valuable teaching tool. I wonder if part of the confusion is about what people really mean by 2-3 clave when talking about rumba clave. In son clave, it is obvious which side of the clave is 3 and which is 2, the 3 side has 3 hits in that bar and the 2 side has 2 hits in that bar. Some people hear rumba clave as similar to son clave with the third hit an eighth note later, so the first and second hits sound like a group of 2 and the 3rd, 4th, and 5th hit sound like a group of 3. There is a tendency to call the first 2 hits the "2" in the 2-3 clave, but the 3rd hit is still within the first bar of the clave although it is temporally closer to the 4th hit than the second. So first thing in this discussion should be to make sure everyone is defining 2-3 clave the same way.
Forgive me for the notation, I had a little trouble with the horizontal spacing in this post, with the proportional font, beats may not line up vertically exactly, but count using an eighth note for each character (sorry BNB)

Rumba clave in 4/4
1--------|2--------|.......Measure of clave
1-2-3-4-|1-2-3-4-|.......Count
x--x---x|--x-x---|........Clave
1--2---3|--4-5---|........Hit of clave
3--------|2-------|........American / European terminology for side of clave

davidpenalosa wrote:I have never heard a rumba singer begin the clave pattern in 2-3, like you are apt to hear a salsa singer do.

Not sure if you mean starting the song phrase or starting playing the actual claves. Regarding rumba singers starting a song phrase on the second bar of the clave, I have heard this a lot. Actually, it is very rare for a singer to start exactly on any downbeat. As you said above, usually they start on a pickup note before a downbeat, and often it is a pickup note before the second measure of clave, ie on the third hit of clave, before the tres dos hit on the downbeat of the second measure. Then the main accent of the lead or coro phrase falls with the tres golpe on the first downbeat of the second measure of clave.

Regarding the clave player starting on the 2 side of the rumba clave, I have heard rumberos from Matanzas do this. On recordings, I don't know if it was Saldiguera, Juan Mesa, or the other singer playing clave, but on the Folklor Matancero CD in 4 of the 5 songs by Los Muñequitos the clave begins on the 2 side. Maria la Nieve, Que vendes tu?, Oyelos de nuevo, and La chismosa del solar all begin the clave on the 2 side, albeit with 2 downbeats not a rest. This start definitely gives the guaguanco a different feel than starting on the usual 3 side of clave, and I am sure this is on purpose. Tierra de Hatuey starts the clave on the 3 side. Likewise, on the Cuba in Washington album with Afrocuba de Matanzas, the clave player, probably Minini, starts the clave on the 2 side on the guaguanco Las Leyendas de Grecia.

Rumba clave in 4/4
1--------|2--------|1-------|2--------|.......Measure of clave
1-2-3-4-|1-2-3-4-|1-2-3-4|1-2-3-4-|......Count
x---x---|x--x---x|--x-x---|x--x---x|.......Clave
---------|1--2---3|--4-5---|1--2---3|......Hit of clave
2--------|3-------|2--------|3-------|.......American / European terminology for side of clave

Don't try this at home though, rumberos from la Habana (or New York) won't know what you are doing and will yell at you before the second bar of clave "alante, alante, ka ka, ka ka ka"!

Maybe one of Sandy Perez' students in the Bay area could ask him about this.


Edited for graphic accuracy of music notation.
Last edited by jorge on Sat Jan 23, 2010 9:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rumba and clave

Postby vasikgreif » Sat Jan 23, 2010 9:39 pm

davidpenalosa wrote:I am not aware of a rumba song that shifts from one side of clave to the other during the verse section. From the harmonic perspective the diana section in "Ave Maria morena" is 3-2, while the coro section is 2-3.

That's it, you nailed it. Harmonic perspective. I'm used to hear music in a harmonical context (my main instrument is actually saxophone). Great point.

bongosnotbombs wrote:I feel the same as Thomas does here. Actually playing at an open rumba one never knows how many singers they are going to play for, what songs they are going to sing, so the salidor and tres dos play off of each other and the clave. I don't know what you mean by "feel" of the one". The one, to me is always where it is; the first hit of clave. Always. I myself, and perhaps I am limited, I don't change that. Certainly one guaguanco will feel different according to the song being sung to it, and where that song begins, however I, when sitting behind a drum can't change the "feel of the one" for one singer, then for the next singer, then change again when there is no singing and the quinto is soloing, then change again when the quinto backs down, then change again during the montuno, and change again when perhaps only the coro is singing, and then change again when it is just dancers and no singing. I myself have never done that, never seen it done and never heard of it being done. Actually I couldn't do it even if I tried. And I assume this would make it very confusing for any dancers.

Even when I sing coro, the beginning of the verse is not the one, even if the coro begins somewhere else. Just because a verse of song begins on a beat that is not the first hit of clave, does not make that beat the one. The song does not supercede the clave. However, I do agree that a song that may begin on the bombo for example, creates a different rhythmic feeling than one may begin on the first hit of clave.

Great post, now is your view about this clear for me, thanks!
jorge wrote:on the Folklor Matancero CD in 4 of the 5 songs by Los Muñequitos the clave begins on the 2 side.

Interesting information, I don't have the CD, will have to get it.
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Re: Rumba and clave

Postby davidpenalosa » Sat Jan 23, 2010 10:15 pm

jorge wrote:1. I wonder if part of the confusion is about what people really mean by 2-3 clave when talking about rumba clave.
2. Not sure if you mean starting the song phrase or starting playing the actual claves.
3. Regarding the clave player starting on the 2 side of the rumba clave, . . . Maria la Nieve, Que vendes tu?, Oyelos de nuevo, and La chismosa del solar all begin the clave on the 2 side, albeit with 2 downbeats not a rest. This start definitely gives the guaguanco a different feel than starting on the usual 3 side of clave, and I am sure this is on purpose. Tierra de Hatuey starts the clave on the 3 side. Likewise, on the Cuba in Washington album with Afrocuba de Matanzas, the clave player, probably Minini, starts the clave on the 2 side on the guaguanco Las Leyendas de Grecia.


Hi Jorge,
1. I don't think particular confusion has yet entered in this discussion.
2. When I speak of starting the song phrase, I'm talking about where within the clave cycle the pattern begins. For example, it may begin on bombo, the second stroke of clave. When I speak of starting the clave pattern, I'm talking about which clave strokes you begin with. Typically you begin with the first stroke. In salsa they will begin with the two strokes of the two-side if the song is in 2-3.
3. Although it's hard to know for sure because the time sounds like it gets stretched a bit, I hear that strange clave "intro" by Matanceros as beginning on main beat 4, coinciding with the last stroke of clave:

X . . X | . . X . X . . X . . X . X . . . || X . . X . . . X . . X . X . . . || Matanzas clave intro

Is that how you hear it? Yes it does begin on the two-side, so I take your point. I was speaking about playing 2-3 clave:

|| . . X . X . . . X . . X . . . X || 2-3 rumba clave

-David
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Re: Rumba and clave

Postby jorge » Sat Jan 23, 2010 11:09 pm

David,
davidpenalosa wrote:1. I don't think particular confusion has yet entered in this discussion.

I have known people to make that mistake. I just wanted to make sure everyone is on the same page from the beginning.

davidpenalosa wrote:3. Although it's hard to know for sure because the time sounds like it gets stretched a bit, I hear that strange clave "intro" by Matanceros as beginning on main beat 4, coinciding with the last stroke of clave:

X . . X | . . X . X . . X . . X . X . . . || X . . X . . . X . . X . X . . . || Matanzas clave intro

Is that how you hear it? Yes it does begin on the two-side, so I take your point. I was speaking about playing 2-3 clave:


No, I don't think the time gets stretched at all, and I don't hear it starting on beat 4. The clave hits on 1 and 3 of the first measure, not 1 and 4. Then it hits on 1 of the second measure. The beginning clave is the same rhythm as one way of the bombo starting a conga de comparsa habanera... bip bip bip Boom, with the bips on downbeats and the Boom on what we call the bombo. The first hit is on the 1 of the first measure, as I tried to write it in my last post. The beginning of Maria la Nieve is a bit sloppy, listen to Que vendes tu? and the other 2 songs, the timing is more precise.
Last edited by jorge on Sat Jan 23, 2010 11:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Rumba and clave

Postby jorge » Sat Jan 23, 2010 11:17 pm

vasikgreif wrote: Interesting information, I don't have the CD, will have to get it.

One of the great rumba CDs of all time, 9 great songs out of 9.
Title: Los Muñequitos de Matanzas / Folklore Matancero Oyelos de Nuevo, Qbadisc QB9013. Recorded 1970, CD out in 1994. Not sure if it is still in print.
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Re: Rumba and clave

Postby davidpenalosa » Sat Jan 23, 2010 11:41 pm

jorge wrote:The clave hits on 1 and 3 of the first measure, not 1 and 4.


Thanks Jorge,
I hear it now!
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Re: Rumba and clave

Postby jorge » Sun Jan 24, 2010 12:18 am

Yeah, if you listen to Maria la Nieve first, you can hear it wrong, because it was played a little bit sloppy. Listening carefully to the other songs, the timing is very precise and clear. It sure is much harder to communicate this stuff in writing than to sit down with someone, listen to a CD, count it out, and play it out on claves and drums.
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Re: Rumba and clave

Postby windhorse » Sun Jan 24, 2010 7:10 pm

I've been working on singing through the whole song "Congo Yambumba" over 1st shaker, then clave.
After getting where the the song went on the pulse, I worked out how it fit over clave.
It has been just as difficult as it was when I was first using Altmann's book to attempt playing bell and singing orisha songs a few years ago.
The way it lines up on clave really is a mind twister if you're both playing the clave and singing this song. I tend to lose the direction of clave, and leave out the 3rd strike of clave. So, it will be a while before I can say, "I've got it down."
I feel that one of the best ways to learn the "feel" of this music is attempting to sing on various percussion parts. Once you've wrestled with several songs over clave or bell, you become more adept with playing clave, and the other parts as well.
These are few of the entry points.. We'll see if it lines up when this is posted.
1st line of Akpon - begins on 4th strike of clave and resolves on the one
|| X . . X . . . X . . X . X . . . ||
..........................Yo me ente
|| X . . X . . . X . . X . X . . . ||
....ré,

1st line of Coro - begins on 4th strike of clave and doesn't quite resolve until the following measure's 3rd pulse
|| X . . X . . . X . . X . X . . . ||
..........................Tu de bes

Second section of Akpon - begins on 4th strike of clave and resolves on the one
|| X . . X . . . X . . X . X . . . ||
..........................Y ahora
|| X . . X . . . X . . X . X . . . ||
....veo

2nd section of Coro - starts on the bombo and resolves on the one (a real mouthful)
|| X . . X . . . X . . X . X . . . ||
..........congoyambumbamellamo
|| X . . X . . . X . . X . X . . . ||
....Yo
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Re: Rumba and clave

Postby davidpenalosa » Mon Jan 25, 2010 1:23 am

Thomas Altmann wrote:What are the correct denominations of the different sections in a rumba, anyway? What is the first part called? Is the second part also called estribillo?


Hi Thomas,
In her book Rumba; Dance and Social Change in Contemporary Cuba, Yvonne Daniel calls the verse section décima or estrofa and the chorus section estribillo. I sometimes call the the chorus section montuno, but I don't know if that term is a North American usage, or an older Cuban usage.
-David
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Re: Rumba and clave

Postby Thomas Altmann » Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:31 am

Thank you David. I wasn't too far off then. However, my understanding of the term décima refers more to the lyrical form of line- and rhyme scheme in the estrofa. Could there be a double meaning to it?

I have one more question that does relate to the subject of this thread, although it steers a bit away from Vasik's original question. Apart from the stylistic convention to apply this specific clave form to Guaguancó, Conga, etc; do you think (feel/know) that the 4+ of Rumba clave has any physical effect on the actual rhythmic arrangement that differs clearly from the 4 of the Son clave? I know that the standard quinto ride places an accent there. But I am rather talking about the general characteristics; for example, what might occur to a Songo or Timba type arrangement in Rumba clave. Does the 4+ possess something like a gravity on the actual rhythmics? Usually, in a two-bar-structured arrangement the 4+ tends to precede the 3-part of the clave. And, is there any ponche mechanism in Rumba clave as well, or is it completely absorbed by the bombo note as its rhythmic center?

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Re: Rumba and clave

Postby davidpenalosa » Mon Jan 25, 2010 4:47 pm

Thomas Altmann wrote:. . . 1. my understanding of the term décima refers more to the lyrical form of line- and rhyme scheme in the estrofa. Could there be a double meaning to it? . . . 2. Apart from the stylistic convention to apply this specific clave form to Guaguancó, Conga, etc; do you think (feel/know) that the 4+ of Rumba clave has any physical effect on the actual rhythmic arrangement that differs clearly from the 4 of the Son clave? . . . I am rather talking about the general characteristics; for example, what might occur to a Songo or Timba type arrangement in Rumba clave. Does the 4+ possess something like a gravity on the actual rhythmics? Usually, in a two-bar-structured arrangement the 4+ tends to precede the 3-part of the clave. And, is there any ponche mechanism in Rumba clave as well, or is it completely absorbed by the bombo note as its rhythmic center?


Hi Thomas,
1. According to Yvonne Daniel: "The verse is called decima . . . but has little relationship to the classic decima form, the ten-line stanza of Spanish literature."

2. I used to think that the clave pattern (son or rumba) purposely reflected something about the overall rhythmic structure of the music. Noticing that son and salsa use son clave and rumba and songo use rumba clave, it seemed a fair assumption that the use of rumba clave indicated that the music was more syncopated. In timba though, I can't discern any consistent difference between songs that use one clave pattern or the other. In fact, some timba drummers arbitrarily switch back and forth between son clave and rumba clave on the jam block.

I like the affect of having son clave in a song where there's a strong accent on primary ponche. However, rumba clave might be used. The ponche mechanism is still present on the three-side in the overall ensemble rhythm whether or not son clave is used. There are still structurally two cells of tresillo within each clave cycle.

If we consider that historically, the traditional songs and the quinto phrases are not affected by which clave is used, we have to be careful about drawing too much from which pattern is used.
-David
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Re: Rumba and clave

Postby Thomas Altmann » Mon Jan 25, 2010 5:44 pm

Thank you very much, David. This coincides exactly with my understanding, or how I used to feel about it. I just couldn't point out particular recordings to prove my point. You could have convinced me otherwise.

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Re: Rumba and clave

Postby guarachon63 » Mon Jan 25, 2010 9:58 pm

David Peñalosa wrote:
1. According to Yvonne Daniel: "The verse is called decima . . . but has little relationship to the classic decima form, the ten-line stanza of Spanish literature."


Sorry, but Ms. Daniel is SO mistaken here. The verse may "contain" a décima, but it is entirely up to the singer(s) to put one in or not. Maybe she only listened to ones that didn't, because in the ones that do, the décimas do indeed have a relationship to classic décima form. (See that décima article I am always referring to on here. :lol: )

Regarding terminology of the parts, as one might expect with Cuban music, the question is simple, the answer is hard.

There is an interesting exchange about it in Leo Acosta's article "The rumba, the guaguancó and Tío Tom" (page 61 here and footnote).

FWIW, I usually refer to the parts as

La diana
El canto
El montuno

On another note:

Thomas Altman wrote:
I cannot care about the singer's choice of song (and its respective clave orientation) all the time while I'm playing. That's the practical inside situation, no matter whether you can come later and listen to a recording from the outside and say, this is in clave 2-3, or whatever. And besides, sometimes you just can't tell.


bongosnotbombs wrote:
I feel the same as Thomas does here. Actually playing at an open rumba one never knows how many singers they are going to play for, what songs they are going to sing, so the salidor and tres dos play off of each other and the clave.


Am understanding this correctly? What you guys play during a rumba is not influenced by the song at all? :o

I'm not sure what Spiro meant about where the one is felt (to me it is always on the first note of the three side), but as far as the drummer needing to always keep in mind that he is accompanying a song, he was right on the money.

One of the things I am always struck by on my favorite rumba recordings is how clearly the drummers are all playing WITH the song. Take "Rumba Caliente 88/77" for example. With rare exceptions, the 3/2 and salidor save their conversations for the end of a sung phrase, or in the space between them. Sounds great. It even seems that when they get into a heavy conversation, the quinto lays back a bit to let them do their thing.

If you know the song, or are even familiar with how rumba songs go (they tend to make use of the same devices), you can make better use of those spaces. Just my 2 cents.

Saludos!
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