Thomas Altmann wrote: . . . here goes my question: Are there songs in Rumba that cannot be clearly defined as being in either 3-2 or 2-3 clave, the same as in Lukumí music? And does the clave change sometimes during that first ("verse") section of a rumba in shorter periods, too? As a result: Is the consideration of a dualistic clave orientation (either 3-2 or 2-3) in folkloric Rumba inappropriate or even pointless? (Greetings to David!)
The singer can start to sing almost anywhere, but that does not change that beat to the 1.
This is important sentence for me. Does it mean the "feel of the one" stays the whole song on the three side?
I often found it more advisable to eclipse the song and its clave orientation, because my position and my activity in the drumming department requires to function more or less independently from the song placement. I have to play and answer the same calls in the same correct rhythmic position in either (or should I say: each?) clave. I have to play my variations of the bembe caja in the same clave position in 3-2 as in 2-3 or in any in-between clave relation of a song. I cannot care about the singer's choice of song (and its respective clave orientation) all the time while I'm playing. That's the practical inside situation, no matter whether you can come later and listen to a recording from the outside and say, this is in clave 2-3, or whatever. And besides, sometimes you just can't tell.
davidpenalosa wrote:I have never heard a rumba singer begin the clave pattern in 2-3, like you are apt to hear a salsa singer do.
davidpenalosa wrote:I am not aware of a rumba song that shifts from one side of clave to the other during the verse section. From the harmonic perspective the diana section in "Ave Maria morena" is 3-2, while the coro section is 2-3.
bongosnotbombs wrote:I feel the same as Thomas does here. Actually playing at an open rumba one never knows how many singers they are going to play for, what songs they are going to sing, so the salidor and tres dos play off of each other and the clave. I don't know what you mean by "feel" of the one". The one, to me is always where it is; the first hit of clave. Always. I myself, and perhaps I am limited, I don't change that. Certainly one guaguanco will feel different according to the song being sung to it, and where that song begins, however I, when sitting behind a drum can't change the "feel of the one" for one singer, then for the next singer, then change again when there is no singing and the quinto is soloing, then change again when the quinto backs down, then change again during the montuno, and change again when perhaps only the coro is singing, and then change again when it is just dancers and no singing. I myself have never done that, never seen it done and never heard of it being done. Actually I couldn't do it even if I tried. And I assume this would make it very confusing for any dancers.
Even when I sing coro, the beginning of the verse is not the one, even if the coro begins somewhere else. Just because a verse of song begins on a beat that is not the first hit of clave, does not make that beat the one. The song does not supercede the clave. However, I do agree that a song that may begin on the bombo for example, creates a different rhythmic feeling than one may begin on the first hit of clave.
jorge wrote:on the Folklor Matancero CD in 4 of the 5 songs by Los Muñequitos the clave begins on the 2 side.
jorge wrote:1. I wonder if part of the confusion is about what people really mean by 2-3 clave when talking about rumba clave.
2. Not sure if you mean starting the song phrase or starting playing the actual claves.
3. Regarding the clave player starting on the 2 side of the rumba clave, . . . Maria la Nieve, Que vendes tu?, Oyelos de nuevo, and La chismosa del solar all begin the clave on the 2 side, albeit with 2 downbeats not a rest. This start definitely gives the guaguanco a different feel than starting on the usual 3 side of clave, and I am sure this is on purpose. Tierra de Hatuey starts the clave on the 3 side. Likewise, on the Cuba in Washington album with Afrocuba de Matanzas, the clave player, probably Minini, starts the clave on the 2 side on the guaguanco Las Leyendas de Grecia.
davidpenalosa wrote:1. I don't think particular confusion has yet entered in this discussion.
davidpenalosa wrote:3. Although it's hard to know for sure because the time sounds like it gets stretched a bit, I hear that strange clave "intro" by Matanceros as beginning on main beat 4, coinciding with the last stroke of clave:
X . . X | . . X . X . . X . . X . X . . . || X . . X . . . X . . X . X . . . || Matanzas clave intro
Is that how you hear it? Yes it does begin on the two-side, so I take your point. I was speaking about playing 2-3 clave:
vasikgreif wrote: Interesting information, I don't have the CD, will have to get it.
jorge wrote:The clave hits on 1 and 3 of the first measure, not 1 and 4.
Thomas Altmann wrote:What are the correct denominations of the different sections in a rumba, anyway? What is the first part called? Is the second part also called estribillo?
Thomas Altmann wrote:. . . 1. my understanding of the term décima refers more to the lyrical form of line- and rhyme scheme in the estrofa. Could there be a double meaning to it? . . . 2. Apart from the stylistic convention to apply this specific clave form to Guaguancó, Conga, etc; do you think (feel/know) that the 4+ of Rumba clave has any physical effect on the actual rhythmic arrangement that differs clearly from the 4 of the Son clave? . . . I am rather talking about the general characteristics; for example, what might occur to a Songo or Timba type arrangement in Rumba clave. Does the 4+ possess something like a gravity on the actual rhythmics? Usually, in a two-bar-structured arrangement the 4+ tends to precede the 3-part of the clave. And, is there any ponche mechanism in Rumba clave as well, or is it completely absorbed by the bombo note as its rhythmic center?
David Peñalosa wrote:
1. According to Yvonne Daniel: "The verse is called decima . . . but has little relationship to the classic decima form, the ten-line stanza of Spanish literature."
Thomas Altman wrote:
I cannot care about the singer's choice of song (and its respective clave orientation) all the time while I'm playing. That's the practical inside situation, no matter whether you can come later and listen to a recording from the outside and say, this is in clave 2-3, or whatever. And besides, sometimes you just can't tell.
bongosnotbombs wrote:
I feel the same as Thomas does here. Actually playing at an open rumba one never knows how many singers they are going to play for, what songs they are going to sing, so the salidor and tres dos play off of each other and the clave.
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