Rumba and clave

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Re: Rumba and clave

Postby RitmoBoricua » Fri Jan 22, 2010 11:44 pm

David,

It seems to me there are songs in (son clave) that begin in the last beat of the 3 side, that beat that is heavily accented.
I need to get your book. thank you for clarifying things. I am one of those that play by feel or like they say back home by ear.
Back in home in Puerto Rico up in the mountains when we played "Jibaro music" which is clave based too nobody explained
things in the 3/2 or 2/3 concept, they will tell you you are playing cruzao but no in terms 3 side or 2 side of the clave, they had
their own way of explaining things.
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Re: Rumba and clave

Postby vasikgreif » Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:14 am

David and others,
thanks a lot for this info, it helped me a lot.

Vasik
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Re: Rumba and clave

Postby Tonio » Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:37 am

[quote="davidpenalosa
Tonio,
Rumba quinto typically alternates between triple and duple-pulse structures (12/8 and 4/4). Columbia quinto is an interesting case. The late Jesús Alfonso (quintero for Los Muñequitos) told me, and demonstrated how the triple-pulse structure is the basis for columbia quinto. However, some quinto players use more duple-pulse phrases than triple in columbia. So, there is some truth to what you say.

By the way, I just finished writing my latest book Rumba Quinto (due out this summer), so all these issues are fresh in my mind.
-David[/quote]

It took me a while to grasp the 4/4 feel over a 6/8 or 12/8 structure for soloing. I tend to play with feel vs thinking in a structured way back then, so I forgot about that. Thanks for the correction.

Awesome, I will definately get your new book.

T
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Re: Rumba and clave

Postby jorge » Sat Jan 23, 2010 2:53 am

RitmoBoricua wrote:If some of the purist do not go by the formula or concept of 3/2 or 2/3 they rather feel it I am wondering if they can feel the concept of playing “cruzao”. Or there is no “cruzao” playing for them.


Playing rumba with Cubans (at least in NYC and NJ), if someone crosses the clave, the response of the rumberos is usually instantaneous. It can range from someone showing the offending person the correct part for a bar or two on a drum that was playing another part, to singing the correct part, to a dirty look, to yelling to a friend to get the guilty person off the drum, to standing up and stopping the song to regroup and get someone who can play in clave to replace the person who went off clave. I have seen fights break out over a crossed clave. Cuban rumberos take clave VERY seriously, and almost never ignore it if someone goes off. Sometimes if there are 2 people playing who in the past have had questionable timing, the wrong one gets blamed. In fact the timing between 2 instruments is relative and it is often very hard to tell who messed up, so many good drummers won't even play with people who they think might go off clave, so as not to be associated with bad rumba. This is a harsh but time tested and legitimate way to teach people to play in clave. In fact, I haven't seen a better way (although we could do without the threats of physical violence). Does anyone else know a better way (that works) to learn to play rumba in clave?
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Re: Rumba and clave

Postby davidpenalosa » Sat Jan 23, 2010 8:53 am

RitmoBoricua wrote:David, It seems to me there are songs in (son clave) that begin in the last beat of the 3 side, that beat that is heavily accented. . . in the mountains when we played "Jibaro music" which is clave based too nobody explained things in the 3/2 or 2/3 concept, they will tell you you are playing cruzao but no in terms 3 side or 2 side of the clave, they had their own way of explaining things.


RitmoBoricua,
I have have also noticed how ensemble parts often enter on the third stroke of son clave. I call that stroke primary ponche. It's used as a pick-up in some 2-3 son-based music. In other words, the third stroke of son clave is a pick-up into the two-side.

How did they address cruzao in Jibaro music. Did they call it cruzao?
-David
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Re: Rumba and clave

Postby RitmoBoricua » Sat Jan 23, 2010 1:20 pm

<<I have have also noticed how ensemble parts often enter on the third stroke of son clave. I call that stroke primary ponche. It's used as a pick-up in some 2-3 son-based music. In other words, the third stroke of son clave is a pick-up into the two-side.>>

Very clever.

<<How did they address cruzao in Jibaro music. Did they call it cruzao?>>

Is called "Cruzao" too and they will take the instrument from you as well just like somebody mentioned happens in some rumbas.
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Re: Rumba and clave

Postby vasikgreif » Sat Jan 23, 2010 5:03 pm

I'm back here, not sure about my questions now. I had an email conversation with Michael Spiro, here it is, maybe some of you guys would have something to add:

Hi, I saw your new Salsa videos and have a question about clave - Jesus starts to play in 2-3 clave on timbales, but when he starts to count, he counts in 3-2 clave. It could be seen in one of the former videos too. So, does it mean he is actually always feeling the rhythms in 3-2 clave, even when the song is in 2-3?
Thanks for clarification, if possible
Vasik


Vasik--It means that without a song, he tends to count/feel everything in 3/2, and then "adjust" when he realizes he supposed to be in 2/3. We could have had him redo it all, but we just went with it. But you are very astute to have caught it. Nicely done!
Michael


Hi Michael, thanks for your really quick reply! I'm thinking about clave a lot now so it is no surprise I catched it...:-) I would have some more question, that I'm discussing in CongaPlace forum too (viewtopic.php?f=5&t=5265&p=53277#p53277 ), but I would be really happy to hear your opinion about it too:
Is the guaguanco always felt 3-2? I mean do the musicians, dancers and singers all feel the whole song in 3-2, that means the one is on the first beat of three side?
Clave in all Munequitos recordings starts 3-2, but quite often when the singer enters I start to feel the song 2-3 and the feel is changing all the time during the song... I really would like to get the concept how it works with the singing and dancing in guaguanco regarding clave direction. Thanks for your help.
Vasik, Czech republic


Vasik--You're asking all the right questions, but it's really hard to answer them all in an e-mail. Basically---you will feel the direction of the clave based on where the melodic phrase (the song) begins. So you are correct that it will change throughout a piece, as the song(s) move around in their relation to clave. Does that make sense?
Michael


Hi Michael, thanks for your opinion about this. Sorry that I'm bothering you with all these questions, I know it is much more fun to practice than to sit at computer and answer my questions, the problem is there's NO ONE teacher here in Czech republic, so I'm trying to get informations from any possible source...
To go back to clave, here's what I got in the Congaplace forum thread (which actually became quite interesting). My question was:
Should rumba guaguanco be felt in 3-2 clave the whole time?
some of the answers:

"AFAIK there is no such thing as 2/3 rumba clave.
I think of it as a constant and the singer is entering at different points in the clave, and/or that certain syllables coincide or otherwise relate to certain clave hits."

"Yes, always."

"In a folkloric context, the ‘one’ is always the first beat of the three-side, but it’s not proper to say ‘Everything is 3-2 in folkloric music.’ The 3-2/2-3 concept is not a factor; neither African, nor Cuban folklorists use the concept or terminology. If a vocal or instrumental part begins on the two-side, it simply has entered halfway through the cycle."

Well from these anwers I really thougt it is clear now, that guaguanco is always felt 3-2, but then I became your email, in which you say clave feel shifts with melody.
The point why I'm asking so much about this is, when you feel any song in any style from wrong place, it actually works and you could even be able to play with other musicians correctly, but you are hearing and playing totally different song and music...
Would be glad if you would find time to answer me, don't worry if you don't, I know you have thousand other things to do...

Thanks
Vasik


Vasik--The issue is this---When there is no singing, the first beat of clave is always considered the "one" of the music, so it would always be felt 3/2. But when the singing starts, it "imposes" a musical phrase over the ostinato of the percussion parts that cannot/should not be ignored, and requires that you would shift where you feel the phrase beginning, depending on that song's relationship to clave. As you correctly point out, you could keep playing and "ignore" the song phrase, but that would be pretty stupid/pointless/difficult don't you think?
Hope this helps--
Michael


Michael,
glad to see your replies. I naturally want to feel the song in the same way as the singer does and not to ignore the phrasing. BUT what if the singer feels the start of clave always at the three side, and when he starts the phrase on the two side, he feels it like kind of pick up? I mean what if I'm just switching because I'm used to some kind of phrasing, because I'm European, not Cuban?
Why I'm still asking: on the forum I asked:
1. Just to be sure that I understand it correctly - the "one" is always first beat of three side, so it should be always felt in this way, and the singers and instrumentalist all feel the song in this way, right?
and David Penalosa, author of Clave Matrix book, answered me: YES
That means either I don't understand correctly one of you or you simply have different opinions on this question.
It's a pitty I live here and cannot meet any of you guys to speak about this personally and make the things more clear...
Vasik


Well, we obviously have a difference of opinion on this, and with all respect to David Penalosa (he is a friend of mine)--He is wrong (and I should-- he is not a singer. No one can play music and ignore the melodic phrase being sung, as if it is a separate world which you can ignore--As one of the drummers, You are ACCOMPANYING the song, not playing in your own separate universe!!!

I think he doesn't ignore the melodic phrasing, he is just hearing it from different place then you. The point of this whole is that there are unlimited ways of possibilities how to hear or feel any song, and it's necesarry to find out the way how the natives feel it - like when I was starting to learn flamenco and feeling the palos from wrong place - it did work, but then when I learned what is the way Spanish people feel it, I realised it was totally different music before...
Well, I will go back to the Congaplace forum and will try to clear this for me, maybe I'm still missing something. I will let you know when I get some feedback from the guys. Thanks a lot for your help, really appreciate it!
Vasik


Well, that's it. Anything to add to this to clear it maybe little more? Thanks
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Re: Rumba and clave

Postby thomas newton » Sat Jan 23, 2010 6:26 pm

Does Michael know that you are quoting his private emails on this public forum?
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Re: Rumba and clave

Postby bongosnotbombs » Sat Jan 23, 2010 6:33 pm

vasikref,
I assume your not a native english speaker, so this use of the word "feel" is really confusing.
Feelings are subjective and can differ from person to person. When you say feel do you mean
counting?

Feeling and counting are different things.

How can guaguanco be possibly be "felt" in 3/2 or 2/3? Guaguanco always feels like guaguanco.
It's ALWAYS played the same way in relationship to clave.
Different songs will start singing in different places in the rhythm, but that does not change the order of the rhythm to clave.
I think you're running into a problem because you are learning this music so much from abstract study instead of direct experience.
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Re: Rumba and clave

Postby davidpenalosa » Sat Jan 23, 2010 6:42 pm

Vasik,
The one part of my book that my friend Mike Spiro took exception with was the chapter on 3-2, 2-3. In that chapter I methodically prove what I am saying here (the chart on p. 130 in particular makes the point quite concisely). I'm not very comfortable having an indirect argument with Mike through this forum, since he is not a member. However, I will address one of his points in the interest of musical discourse.

• First of all, you said: "guaguanco is always felt 3-2." I said this earlier in the thread: "it’s not proper to say ‘everything is 3-2 in folkloric music.’ The 3-2/2-3 concept is not a factor; neither African, nor Cuban folklorists use the concept or terminology. If a vocal or instrumental part begins on the two-side, it simply has entered halfway through the cycle."

• Cuban folklorists do not use the 3-2/2-3 concept or terminology (see previously posted Mongo Santamaria quote). I have never heard a rumba singer begin the clave pattern in 2-3, like you are apt to hear a salsa singer do. Even contemporary timba musicians do not use it ("In Cuba we do not use that 2-3, 3-2 formula . . . 2-3, 3-2 [is] not used in Cuba. That is how people learn Cuban music outside Cuba").

Cuban jazz super-drummer Dafnis Prieto gives demonstrations/lectures at universities in this country and his entire presentation is centered around clave. Everything he plays is done in relation to clave. When I questioned him on the subject, he stately flatly that the 3-2/2-3 concept is not used in Cuba.

As Bobby Sanabria said (see his quote posted in my earlier message), the 3-2/2-3 concept and terminology was developed in New York City, most likely by Mario Bauza. It was developed out of necessity when Cuban rhythm and jazz harmony were integrated like never before in arrangements by NY-based Machito and his Afro-Cubans (under the direction of Mario Bauza). In other words, it was developed as a way of communicating with non-Cuban jazz musicians about the clave structure and how that rhythmic structure relates to the harmonic structure.

• It has often been said that "clave is the key." Clave is the key pattern or guide pattern (as it is often called in ethnomusicology). I've never heard anyone say "the phrase is the key." Different phrases begin on different strokes of clave (or other pulses). Clave defines the "universe." All vocal and instrumental parts evolve around it. Clave has two halves: call-and-response, or antecedent-consequent. All phrases are rhythmically understood within the context of this binary structure. The rhythmic dynamics of the clave pattern do not move in a consequent-antecedent sequence. To relate the phrase to clave is not "ignoring" the phrase. It is putting the phrase in its proper context.

In conclusion, it is undeniably true that Cuban rumberos do not use the 3-2/2-3 concept or terminology. I used to use 3-2/2-3 in folkloric music in much the same way Mike does. About ten years ago I began writing about 3-2/2-3 and in the process of trying to explain it I discovered some of the main points I've shared in this thread. I realized that I actually didn't fully understand what 3-2/2-3 was and what it wasn't. In your own interactions with North American and European musicians you will probably encounter use of the 3-2/2-3 concept in rumba. You will not find its use among Cuban rumberos. Since you have heard two sides of this argument, you are now well prepared for dealing with these different musical viewpoints.
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Re: Rumba and clave

Postby davidpenalosa » Sat Jan 23, 2010 6:52 pm

thomas newton wrote:Does Michael know that you are quoting his private emails on this public forum?


Good point. Vasik you should probably let Mike know that you quoted his private email and apologize in advance for any breach of protocol.
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Re: Rumba and clave

Postby vasikgreif » Sat Jan 23, 2010 7:03 pm

thomas newton wrote:Does Michael know that you are quoting his private emails on this public forum?

davidpenalosa wrote:Good point. Vasik you should probably let Mike know that you quoted his private email and apologize in advance for any breach of protocol.
-David

I didn't ask Michael if I can post the emails here, but I will let him know. I think there's nothing wrong with it, as it's about the clave subject only and there's nothing private in the emails, but maybe I really should ask first...

bongosnotbombs wrote:vasikref,
I assume your not a native english speaker, so this use of the word "feel" is really confusing.
Feelings are subjective and can differ from person to person. When you say feel do you mean
counting?

How can guaguanco be possibly be "felt" in 3/2 or 2/3? It's ALWAYS played the same way in relationship to clave.
Different songs will start singing in different places in the rhythm, but that does not change the order of the
rhythm to clave. Guaguanco always feels like guaguanco.

davidpenalosa wrote:In conclusion, it is undeniably true that Cuban rumberos do not use the 3-2/2-3 concept or terminology. I used to use 3-2/2-3 in folkloric music in much the same way Mike does. About ten years ago I began writing about 3-2/2-3 and in the process of trying to explain it I discovered some of the main points I've shared in this thread. I realized that I actually didn't fully understand what 3-2/2-3 was and what it wasn't. In your own interactions with North American and European musicians you will probably encounter use of the 3-2/2-3 concept in rumba. You will not find its use among Cuban rumberos. Since you have heard two sides of this argument, you are now well prepared for dealing with these different musical viewpoints.

Yes, I'm not native english, I'm from Czech republic, that's why I'm always asking many times about the things that are maybe said clearly, I would like to be sure I understand the meanings correctly.

When I use feel I mean where you "feel" the beat one of the rhythm, the point where the rhythm/song starts. I know it is always the same rhythm and in the same relation to clave, but you can "feel" the beat one in any place. Any song can be "felt" from any place, right? How you hear a song depends mainly on your musical experiences and the place you are from, I think...
Now, guaguanco is two bar. What I'm asking is if you switch to "feel" the guaguanco as 2-3, when the singer sings some kind of phrase - or if guaguanco is always "felt" 3-2 and the singer feels the beat one on three side all the time. The point is I'm able to switch between 3-2 and 2-3 feel of the song, I mean hear the beat one on both sides of clave, but I don't know which way is correct, that means if guaguanco is always 3-2 or if the "feel" changes in relation to what singer sings...
If you have any better word, let me know, sorry for my english, hope you understand me now... Reading all this I'm actually not sure, if I should think about it or if I should simply play and "feel" the song in the way that's "natural" for me (how are you used to hear things), but maybe wrong...
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Re: Rumba and clave

Postby bongosnotbombs » Sat Jan 23, 2010 7:36 pm

vasikgreif wrote:When I use feel I mean where you "feel" the beat one of the rhythm, the point where the rhythm/song starts. I know it is always the same rhythm and in the same relation to clave, but you can "feel" the beat one in any place. Any song can be "felt" from any place, right? How you hear a song depends mainly on your musical experiences and the place you are from, I think...
Now, guaguanco is two bar. What I'm asking is if you switch to "feel" the guaguanco as 2-3, when the singer sings some kind of phrase - or if guaguanco is always "felt" 3-2 and the singer feels the beat one on three side all the time. The point is I'm able to switch between 3-2 and 2-3 feel of the song, I mean hear the beat one on both sides of clave, but I don't know which way is correct, that means if guaguanco is always 3-2 or if the "feel" changes in relation to what singer sings...

Does that also mean you can feel the "one" on the "two"?

Guaguanco is only two bar if it is written down and then written in 1/8 notes. I write it down as one bar with 1/16 notes.

I can't feel the beat of "one" in just any place, because the tres dos plays on the 3, or more accurately the third hit of clave.
Rumba clave begins with the first hit, then the bombo, then the third hit, etc, and that is always the order. When a singer starts
with playing rumba clave he plays it that way and then begins to sing where the song begins in relationship to clave, the clave doesn't change when he begins singing, nor does the rhythm.

In an actual rumba, the drummers can play guaguanco without ever stopping, for several singers each one singing
different songs that start in different places, with different coros. The clave stays the same, and the base rhythm never changes.
The singer can start to sing almost anywhere, but that does not change that beat to the 1.

I agree with David, there is no 3/2, 2/3; there is only clave. The Cuban singers and players I know never, ever mention "1", it is always "listen to the clave".
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Re: Rumba and clave

Postby Thomas Altmann » Sat Jan 23, 2010 7:55 pm

Hi Vasik,

I hope that Michael gave you the permission to cite him verbatim on this forum. I don't know about him, but I certainly find it more appropriate to talk about "difference of opinions" than to state that someone "is wrong", especially if that someone is a person who is as involved in one particular matter as David is in clave affairs.

The subject that you brought up has been dealt with in various threads on the board, even if not any one of those did answer directly to your question. Back then, I used to wonder why only such a small number of members participated in these discussions. Now the same stuff is repeatedly dragged up while the same people can be seen nicely maintaining their same positions and perspectives.

Staying in that vein, I could repeat my statement that, even though Cuban folklore musicians don't talk about clave directions, we could use the 3-2/2-3 terminology in an analytical way, as to approach the rhythmical phrasing in Cuban folklore music from a European point of view. I could reiterate that in my understanding the clave is the primordial, monolithic time-shaping pattern, on top of which any melodic phrase may be harmoniously superimposed, no matter whether you call it 3-2 or 2-3 at a given moment.

Without responding to Michael Spiro directly - because he is not a member of this group - I would like to comment on the idea of the drummer accompanying a song. In my experience, which is more in Lukumí music (batá, bembe) than in Rumba, I often found it more advisable to eclipse the song and its clave orientation, because my position and my activity in the drumming department requires to function more or less independently from the song placement. I have to play and answer the same calls in the same correct rhythmic position in either (or should I say: each?) clave. I have to play my variations of the bembe caja in the same clave position in 3-2 as in 2-3 or in any in-between clave relation of a song. I cannot care about the singer's choice of song (and its respective clave orientation) all the time while I'm playing. That's the practical inside situation, no matter whether you can come later and listen to a recording from the outside and say, this is in clave 2-3, or whatever. And besides, sometimes you just can't tell.

Whenever I had a chance to play quinto, I realized the same situation; when in doubt, I clinged to the clave, no matter whether the song was in 3-2 or 2-3.

I'm not sure whether everybody else is working in the same way as I did. After all, I am not exactly the most experienced folklore / religious drummer in the world. But I feel that the song and the drumming work - harmoniously, but to a certain degree independently - on two separate musical levels. They know of each other; so the singer can (must) start any song in the right place to stay in clave, and the drummers respond to the singer's signals by changing toques at the right time. But it remains basically a dual action.

I think that Rumba songs are generally more Spanish / European in their nature compared to Lukumí music. But, apart from the fact that Lucumí songs are often incorporated in Rumba (especially Columbia), Rumba singing is still performed in an African-informed manner. I know that there can be clave changes in Rumba between the first part and the montuno (effected, of course, by means of odd phrasing). I have never heard a singer start to play the clave on its 2-part; they always play 3-2 and sing the diana, no matter where the song is going to take them.

But, and here goes my question: Are there songs in Rumba that cannot be clearly defined as being in either 3-2 or 2-3 clave, the same as in Lukumí music? And does the clave change sometimes during that first ("verse") section of a rumba in shorter periods, too? As a result: Is the consideration of a dualistic clave orientation (either 3-2 or 2-3) in folkloric Rumba inappropriate or even pointless? (Greetings to David!)

Vasik: I hope that, implicit in this post, you may gain some insight in what is my understanding of the problem you brought to our attention. I don't really resent you for bringing up your question, heaven forbid.

Thomas

P.S.: What are the correct denominations of the different sections in a rumba, anyway? What is the first part called? Is the second part also called estribillo?
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Re: Rumba and clave

Postby vasikgreif » Sat Jan 23, 2010 8:22 pm

bongosnotbombs wrote:Does that also mean you can feel the "one" on the "two"?

I am able to feel the "one" in any place, because I practiced rhytmic illusions concept quite a lot (Gavin Harrison - Rhythmic Illusions), but that's not the point for now. In guaguanco I'm talking about feeling the "one" on three side or two side of clave.
bongosnotbombs wrote:Guaguanco is only two bar if it is written down and then written in 1/8 notes. I write it down as one bar with 1/16 notes.

I can't feel the beat of "one" in just any place, because the tres dos plays on the 3, or more accurately the third hit of clave.
Rumba clave begins with the first hit, then the bombo, then the third hit, etc, and that is always the order. When a singer starts
with playing rumba clave he plays it that way and then begins to sing where the song begins in relationship to clave, the clave doesn't change when he begins singing, nor does the rhythm.

In an actual rumba, the drummers can play guaguanco without ever stopping, for several singers each one singing
different songs that start in different places, with different coros. The clave stays the same, and the base rhythm never changes.

I understand this, clave remains the same, so do the rhytms in relation to it, that's clear.
bongosnotbombs wrote:The singer can start to sing almost anywhere, but that does not change that beat to the 1.

This is important sentence for me. Does it mean the "feel of the one" stays the whole song on the three side?
bongosnotbombs wrote:I agree with David, there is no 3/2, 2/3; there is only clave. The Cuban singers and players I know never, ever mention "1", it is always "listen to the clave".

The problem is here in Czech republic there are no Cubans, no rumberos who learn from, nobody who knows about this music. I'm learning from listening to recordings, reading books and talking with you, guys.
Thomas Altmann wrote:But I feel that the song and the drumming work - harmoniously, but to a certain degree independently - on two separate musical levels. They know of each other; so the singer can (must) start any song in the right place to stay in clave, and the drummers respond to the singer's signals by changing toques at the right time. But it remains basically a dual action.

Thanks for your point of view...
Thomas Altmann wrote:And does the clave change sometimes during that first ("verse") section of a rumba in shorter periods, too? As a result: Is the consideration of a dualistic clave orientation (either 3-2 or 2-3) in folkloric Rumba inappropriate or even pointless?

Nice said. Even when I understand that speaking about clave orientation is actually theory only and the Cubans don't use it at all, for European musician it really helps.
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