Rumba and clave

[vasikgreif]

Hi, I'm thinking about this for a long time:

Should rumba (guaguanco, columbia) be felt in 3-2 clave the whole time?

The reason I ask is because the song almost everytime starts with 3-2 clave (listen to any recording of Munequitos), but as the singer begins to sing, I usually switch to feel the song in 2-3. Does it actually matter or do even one singer feel the same song in 3-2 and other singer in 2-3?

I was and still am learning flamenco piano and it happens quite often you are hearing the song from wrong place and then it is quite difficult to switch to the correct way, the same goes with any advanced jazz music or any other style... I mean everyone has some way how he hears the music, but this way is based entirely on how he is used to hear music = when you would grow in another place on planet, you maybe would here waltz from different place then the European, so it becomes totally different feel..

Would be glad if you could clarify this to me...
Vasik

[Thomas Altmann]

Pa'lante David!

Never mind -

Thomas

[burke]

I am not as deep into clave nuance as many (most) in this forum but I know that most often the feel of clave can switch while the actual direction remains the same. The easiest way I've found to test this is to simply just play clave through/along with the song in question and see if it comes out right if you just hold it down.

my 2 clicks worth

[thomas newton]

AFAIK there is no such thing as 2/3 rumba clave.
I think of it as a constant and the singer is entering at different points in the clave, and/or that certain syllables coincide or otherwise relate to certain clave hits.
(edited)

inb4 Profesor Penalosa

[bongosnotbombs]

Should rumba (guaguanco, columbia) be felt in 3-2 clave the whole time?

Yes, always.

AFIK traditional Rumba Columbia should not be felt in 3/2 or 2/3. It is a 6/8 rhythm, and typically
the drums play the same way on both halves of the 6/8 clave. I never think of sides
in Columbia, except maybe when sometimes, in the beginning, the players only play
open tones on alternate sides of clave. Even then I feel I'm responding more to the
other player than to the clave.

[Tonio]

To add onto the Rumba Columbia, the solo is felt in 4/4. At least that is how I learned.

T

[davidpenalosa]

Vasik,
In my book The Clave Matrix I devote an entire chapter to the 3-2, 2-3 concept. I explain in considerable detail what it is and what it isn’t. The concept does not apply to folkloric music like rumba. If the singer begins on the three-side, he has merely entered in the second half of the clave pattern. Here are some pertinent quotes from The Clave Matrix:

"In a folkloric context, the ‘one’ is always the first beat of the three-side, but it’s not proper to say ‘Everything is 3-2 in folkloric music.’ The 3-2/2-3 concept is not a factor; neither African, nor Cuban folklorists use the concept or terminology. If a vocal or instrumental part begins on the two-side, it simply has entered halfway through the cycle."

"The concept of utilizing 3-2 and 2-3 as a terminology developed in NYC. I have done research on this with many of the legendary figures in this tradition, most notably Mario Bauzá, who I played with for eight years. In fact, I would strongly say that he started the terminology" (Bobby Sanabria 2004: per. comm.).

"Don’t tell me about 3-2 or 2-3! In Cuba we just play. We feel it, we don’t talk about such things" (Mongo Santamaría, cited by Washburne 2008: 190).

"According to Sonny Bravo (2006: Latinjazz forum), the late Charlie Palmieri would insist: ‘There’s no such thing as 3-2 or 2-3, there’s only one clave!’"

"In Cuba we do not use that 2-3, 3-2 formula . . . 2-3, 3-2 [is] not used in Cuba. That is how people learn Cuban music outside Cuba" (Alain Pérez 2000: timba.com).

Bongosnotbombs,
While it’s true that the basic arrangements of columbia have the two supporting drums playing the same pattern on both sides of clave, newer arrangements have those drums playing two-sided figures. Regardless of what the two lower drums play however, clave governs the quinto and the singing.
-David Peñalosa

(Thomas: "Karthago-noch ist lebendig" )

[davidpenalosa]

To add onto the Rumba Columbia, the solo is felt in 4/4. At least that is how I learned.

Tonio,
Rumba quinto typically alternates between triple and duple-pulse structures (12/8 and 4/4). Columbia quinto is an interesting case. The late Jesús Alfonso (quintero for Los Muñequitos) told me, and demonstrated how the triple-pulse structure is the basis for columbia quinto. However, some quinto players use more duple-pulse phrases than triple in columbia. So, there is some truth to what you say.

By the way, I just finished writing my latest book Rumba Quinto (due out this summer), so all these issues are fresh in my mind.
-David

[bongosnotbombs]

Bongosnotbombs,
While it’s true that the basic arrangements of columbia have the two supporting drums playing the same pattern on both sides of clave, newer arrangements have those drums playing two-sided figures.

Yes, I know, that's why I wrote "traditional" Rumba Columbia.

[davidpenalosa]

While it’s true that the basic arrangements of columbia have the two supporting drums playing the same pattern on both sides of clave, newer arrangements have those drums playing two-sided figures.

Yes, I know, that's why I wrote "traditional" Rumba Columbia.

Sorry,
I misunderstood you.
-David

[bongosnotbombs]

Sorry,
I misunderstood you.
-David

No worries David. That was an excellent point made regarding the quinto and singing.

[RitmoBoricua]

<<"Don’t tell me about 3-2 or 2-3! In Cuba we just play. We feel it, we don’t talk about such things" (Mongo Santamaría, cited by Washburne 2008: 190). >>

<<"In Cuba we do not use that 2-3, 3-2 formula . . . 2-3, 3-2 [is] not used in Cuba. That is how people learn Cuban music outside Cuba" (Alain Pérez 2000: timba.com).>>

David,

If some of the purist do not go by the formula or concept of 3/2 or 2/3 they rather feel it I am wondering if they can feel the concept of playing “cruzao”. Or there is no “cruzao” playing for them.

[vasikgreif]

Thank you all for your inputs, it's really helpful for me, doesn't have any teacher here in Czech republic. Nice to hear about Columbia too...

"In a folkloric context, the ‘one’ is always the first beat of the three-side, but it’s not proper to say ‘Everything is 3-2 in folkloric music.’ The 3-2/2-3 concept is not a factor; neither African, nor Cuban folklorists use the concept or terminology. If a vocal or instrumental part begins on the two-side, it simply has entered halfway through the cycle."

Just to be sure that I understand it correctly - the "one" is always first beat of three side, so it should be always felt in this way, and the singers and instrumentalist all feel the song in this way, right?
What determines where the singer or instrument enters? Does he always enter same song on same side of clave? What about the coro? Is the coro in same song always on same side?

If some of the purist do not go by the formula or concept of 3/2 or 2/3 they rather feel it I am wondering if they can feel the concept of playing “cruzao”. Or there is no “cruzao” playing for them.

Sorry for me poor knowledge, what is cruzao?

[davidpenalosa]

< some of the purist do not go by the formula or concept of 3/2 or 2/3 they rather feel it I am wondering if they can feel the concept of playing “cruzao”. Or there is no “cruzao” playing for them.

RitmoBoricua,
3-2, 2-3 refers to the side of clave a chord progression begins on in popular music. It does not refer to where in clave a part enters. For example, a chord progression could begin on the three-side, making that song or section 3-2. That same song could enter on the two-side, but because the harmonic progression is in 3-2, those first notes on the two-side are considered to be merely pick-ups.

In folkloric music if a drum part or song is to supposed to begin say, on the two-side, but it instead begins on the three-side, the person who began that way would be playing cruzao, playing incorrectly. However, the 3-2, 2-3 concept is not a factor.
-David

[davidpenalosa]

1. Just to be sure that I understand it correctly - the "one" is always first beat of three side, so it should be always felt in this way, and the singers and instrumentalist all feel the song in this way, right?
2. What determines where the singer or instrument enters? Does he always enter same song on same side of clave? What about the coro? Is the coro in same song always on same side? 3. Sorry for me poor knowledge, what is cruzao?

Hi Vasikgreif,
1. Yes
2. The two-sided instrumental and vocal parts always maintain the same relationship to clave. The musicians may begin their part in a number of different ways, but the part's relation to clave is set. In some settings, where in clave a particular part enters is done the same way every time. For example, the itótele is expected to enter in the same specific place within the clave cycle in many rhythms.
3. Cruzao ('crossed'): A pattern or phrase that is opposite from its correct alignment with clave.
-David