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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 11:28 pm
by davidpenalosa
burke wrote:Ai I Captain - all ahead slow! :D

steady as she goes............ :D

PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 7:25 pm
by Joseph
First off …great discussion

I know it started out as a promo for Mathieu’s book, but the subsequent discussion on counting I found very interesting and informative.

It dawned on me that I was counting triple pulse structure incorrectly.

I was counting
1 2 3 4 5 6 | 1 2 3 4 5 6

Counting like that, and tapping my foot to the four beats was sometimes a source of confusion, especially when playing with short bell pattern as metronome, and trying to grasp a rhythm or exercise.

Counting as you stated David,
1 + a 2 + a 3 + a 4 + a
just cleared up a whole lot of disorientation for me.

do whatever you need to do to maintain CORRECT habits. In this case, if you are going to count, use the correct count.

You’ve just convinced me!

1 + a 2 + a 3 + a 4 + a

Notice that you have four beats in your sequence of twelve pulses. There should also be four beats in your sequence of sixteen pulses:

1 e + a 2 e + a 3 e + a 4 e + a

As I’m sure you are aware, if you tap your foot to the four beats, it’s easy to move from the triple-pulse to duple-pulse structure, which is required in some rhythms.


By changing my triple pulse counting to the above…yes ..I’ve found it easy to switch between duple and triple pulse structure. Not that it’s something I’m doing now in my particular practice, but I was able to do it immediately and easily, just by changing the way I count the triple pulse.

Sometimes it’s the very simple basic stuff.........man, a light just turned on for me! :cool:

I only count when grasping the rhythm, I’ve got a pretty good internal metronome, and practice with clave or short bell(when called for) as metronome.

There is a growing movement to notate, and thus COUNT, the music correctly.


I’m glad to hear that. I much prefer (musical) notation for conga rhythms.
It can convey so much more (e.g. phrasing, dynamics) to the reader to get the proper feel for a rhythm.

Here are some books that write four beats (one cycle of clave) in one measure…
"The Tomas Cruz Conga Method Vols. 1,2,3", written by Kevin Moore. I’m credited with "conceptual guidance" in these books, so naturally, I agree with its notation and counting system.


I don’t want to hijack this thread off into another direction , so I’ll post my observations HERE

Good luck with your book Mathieu, I think David has offered you some very constructive observations.




Edited By Joseph on 1204140789

PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 7:41 pm
by Garvin
I think its ironic that this whole discussion of soloing on djembe has basically boiled down to a discussion on counting, something that is all but absent in the music in its real-life applications.

I understand the need to count in order for Westerners to comprehend this stuff, but I remember some really funny exchanges between one of my teachers and a drummer before when he asked where the "one" was. My teacher had no idea... He kept counting one everywhere and we all laughed about it. Seriously though, great input from everyone. I like that the forum members here care enough about this stuff to want to get it right. Great info!

PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 7:57 pm
by Joseph
Yes there is irony there....we have to slice it & dice it in order to comprehend it.
My teacher had no idea...

He probably didn't have to... he was most probably born into the tradition.

Unfortunately (fortunately) most of us didn't have the luxury (burden) of being born into that tradition.

Cheers

PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 8:30 pm
by davidpenalosa
Joseph wrote:Counting as you stated David,
1 + a 2 + a 3 + a 4 + a
just cleared up a whole lot of disorientation for me.
You’ve just convinced me!

Joseph,
That's very gratifying to hear.
-David

PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 9:19 pm
by Garvin
Joseph wrote:Yes there is irony there....we have to slice it & dice it in order to comprehend it.
My teacher had no idea...

He probably didn't have to... he was most probably born into the tradition.

Unfortunately (fortunately) most of us didn't have the luxury (burden) of being born into that tradition.

Cheers

Yeah, thats exactly what I meant to imply. I understand why we have to do it, and conversely why folks who are born into it do not. Theres nothing wrong with it.

PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 10:26 pm
by davidpenalosa
Garvin wrote:I remember some really funny exchanges between one of my teachers and a drummer before when he asked where the "one" was. My teacher had no idea... He kept counting one everywhere and we all laughed about it.

RULE#1 Never ask your African or Cuban folklorist teacher "where the one" is.
RULE#2 Never ask your African or Cuban folklorist teacher if it's "3-2, or 2-3?"

REASON: Those concepts are probably alien to them and their attempt to answer you could very easily confuse you even further. if you must get a metrical reference, ask them to play the accompanying clave or bell pattern, or demonstrate the dance steps (which are almost always based upon the main beats).

Mamady Keita's djembe book uses a very straight forward notation system. His system demonstates "one", a main cycle of four beats and three or four pulses (subdivisions) per main beat. By not actually puting a count over his notation, he has avoided the controversy discussed in this thread.
-David

PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 10:29 pm
by Joseph
Theres nothing wrong with it.

I hope I didn’t give that impression…it was not my intention

I find it to be an amazing gulf of perception

I understand why we have to do it, and conversely why folks who are born into it do not.

A curious question:
Do you think that those born into (an African non-counting) tradition (like the teacher you quoted), understand why we have to count?
Or is it as incomprehensible to them, as non-counting is to us?

This thread started with Mathieu’s book on djembe soloing, marketed apparently to French speaking western (non African) thinkers, and in order to convey anything on that topic in hard copy…. notation and counting will apply, so I think the subject of counting is very pertinent….but ironic! :p

PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 10:37 pm
by Joseph
Those concepts are probably alien to them and their attempt to answer you could very easily confuse you even further.

...that pesky gulf in perception...

if you must get a metrical reference, ask them to play the accompanying clave or bell pattern, or demonstrate the dance steps

...the bridge across the gulf...

Well stated!




Edited By Joseph on 1204151914

PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 11:20 pm
by davidpenalosa
Joseph wrote:Do you think that those born into (an African non-counting) tradition (like the teacher you quoted), understand why we have to count?
Or is it as incomprehensible to them, as non-counting is to us?

International teachers like Mamady Keita, who've taught a lot of North Americans and Europeans, have over time, come to understand the sensibilities of their students. Still, I believe it was Uschi Billmeier who wrote the transcriptions in Keitas' book. That's usually the case; a student assembles the material for a drum master's book.

A master drummer who has traveled very little outside his village will no doubt find the concept of counting the music and other Western methodologies alien.
-David

PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 12:58 am
by Joseph
1 . . 2 . . . 1 . . 2 . 3 . . .

Hmmm….
I’ve struggled with trying to tap my foot in a clave pattern when playing rhythms.
I’ve tried to do it while tapping the other foot in 4 beat per clave resolution.
It doesn’t take long before I am completely disoriented.

But the counting the clave like that, it somehow seems more grasp-able.

Did you find counting in this way enlightening or disorienting? ???
I never thought to put numbers on the clave.

How did you know which one was the first one?

PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 2:12 am
by Joseph
what we N. Americans call 3-2 rumba clave
"Uno, Dos! ... Uno, Dos, Tres!"


Interesting how that is counted.
3-2 rumba counted as 2-3
Isn't the second Uno in that line considered in the 3 side of the 3-2 rumba clave?

To clarify:
When I think of 3-2 rumba clave in a 4 beat measure,
I envision:
3 clave articulations in the first 2 beats of the measure,
2 clave articulations in the second 2 beats of the measure

I realize this is so much intellectualizing gobbledygook, and its all about grasping a feel for the rhythm.

Nevertheless, an interesting take on it.

Somehow I think the above is violating rule #2 :p




Edited By Joseph on 1204171574

PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 3:40 am
by davidpenalosa
taikonoatama wrote:
davidpenalosa wrote:RULE#2 Never ask your African or Cuban folklorist teacher if it's "3-2, or 2-3?"

Yeah, no kidding. Things can get confusing on several levels, one of which I never imagined until I experienced it first hand when I was taking lessons with Carlos Aldama. He counts standard rumba clave ...

x . . x . . . x . . x . x . . .

... out loud, for the class as:

1 . . 2 . . . 1 . . 2 . 3 . . .

As I've said several times in this forum, the 3-2, 2-3 concept and terminology is not applicable to folkloric music. It does not apply to the on-beat emphasis of a rhythm, where in clave a percussion part enters or where a song begins. It only refers to which side of clave a chord progression begins.

One source of proof of this is the fact that Cuban folklorists do not relate to 3-2, 2-3. However, teachers like Carlos Aldama have had many North American and European students ask them if something was "3-2 or 2-3 clave". What ends up happening is the folklorists use the terminology incorrectly in an effort to help their students:
"1 . . 2 . . . 1 . . 2 . 3 . . ."

Then, some students try to read into this, looking for some kind of message, some insight they may be missing. Folklorists like Carlos have so much to offer, they are like walking encyclopedias. However, this is just another case of misunderstanding what 3-2, 2-3 is.

The first conga drum teachers in the USA were band drummers who understood clave through the prism of popular music. They did not grow up within the folkloric context; they didn't come from those neighborhoods where rumba and bata were part of the social fabric. So, these early North American drummers improperly applied 3-2, 2-3 to all the clave-based music they played. This whole confusion with 3-2, 2-3 has a long history in North America. It's going to take awhile to straighten it out.

It would appear we have strayed from the topic of the djembe book. :)
-David




Edited By davidpenalosa on 1204170154

PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 11:08 pm
by Joseph
It would appear we have strayed from the topic of the djembe book.


Yes, but I'd like to continue it over here.

PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 1:06 pm
by mat277
Bonjour,
J'ai adhéré et je m'en félicite.
j'ai acheté la méthode de mathieu et je ne le regrette pas.

Enfin la méthode solo que j"attendais et qui va me faire gagner un temps précieux. Je suis impressionné par la qualité et la quantité du travail fourni. Il y en a pour tous les goûts et tous les niveaux, pour un prix très raisonnable. La progression est réfléchie, la notation précise et facile d'accès, bref la méthode qu'il me fallait au moment idéal pour pouvoir progresser. Djembeiste depuis trois ans, je stagnais un peu à répéter les rythmes traditionnels, sans trop oser me lancer dans les improvisations par manque de technique certainement mais aussi par manque de bases de phrasés ou autre. Cette méthode ne remplace pas à elle toute seule l'écoute des grands maîtres mais permet de débrousailler le terrain et acquérir des phrases lorsque l'inspiration n'est pas au rendez-vous.
Du beau travail !!!


Jmlb4a http://taikipercu.free.fr/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1215



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Bonjour, tout d'abord merci pour la rapidité de la commande, je viens de finir de travailler sur ta methode,durand 2 heures et j'ai appris pas mal de chose, en fait ,c'est ce qu'il me manquait pour évoluer dans l'apprentissage des solos,c'est une bonne methode ,très clair et très simple dans la comprehension, par rapport a d'autres methode qui utilise le systeme de notation classique,encore bravo, bonne continuation, dans l'attente du volume 2!!!!!!!!!!!!!

merci musicalement Miké




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Je suis un musicien de formation, multi instrumentiste et prof de musique depuis plus de 35 ans. J'ai commencé a étudier le djembé et la percussion africaine il y a 2 ans environ, avec un maitre griot du Sénégal qui m'a enseigné la base et les traditions .Depuis, je me sert de cet enseignement dans le cadre de mes fonctions de facilitateur et de musicothérapeuthe en milieu carcéral.(drum circle). Après avoir appris de nombreux rythmes de base, je tournais en rond (mauvais jeu de mots)depuis un certain temps, jusqu'a ce je trouve votre méthode sur internet. Laissez moi vous dire que je suis ravi et impressionné par la somme de travail qu'il y a dans cet ouvrage et par la rigueur de votre méthode.j'attend avec impatience votre méthode sur les rythmes ternaires.
Merci

Maurice http://www.donaba.net/forumvo....&page=1


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Très bien structuré, bien détaillé et clair dans les propos. Sympathique le relevé de Famoudou Konaté peut être d'autre solos de maîtres pour la methode ternaire. En tout cas bon boulot et bon courage pour la suite.

Pascal




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Bonjour


Avant tout merci pour votre méthode. Je la trouve bien faite, j'ai surtout beaucoup aimé la rédaction des textes, humble et bien renseignée. Pour ma part, j'ai eu un apprentissage très traditionnel. L'acquisition de cette méthode est pour moi un "plus", car je n'ai pas réellement pour objectif d'envoyer des tonnes de solos. Jusqu'à maintenant je n'ai eu que peu de temps pour me pencher en détails sur toute la méthode mais j'ai eu le temps de lire et d'aller écouter les extraits en ligne. Heureusement qu'ils sont là d'ailleurs. Je ne suis pas une experte en déchiffrage. J'y arrive mais c'est quelque peu laborieux. Je compte me servir de cette méthode comme d'un "bonus" et m'y référer lorsque je suis en panne d'inspiration, ou de mémoire plutôt !

emmanuelle