Posted:
Wed Feb 27, 2008 7:25 pm
by Joseph
First off …great discussion
I know it started out as a promo for Mathieu’s book, but the subsequent discussion on counting I found very interesting and informative.
It dawned on me that I was counting triple pulse structure incorrectly.
I was counting
1 2 3 4 5 6 | 1 2 3 4 5 6
Counting like that, and tapping my foot to the four beats was sometimes a source of confusion, especially when playing with short bell pattern as metronome, and trying to grasp a rhythm or exercise.
Counting as you stated David,
1 + a 2 + a 3 + a 4 + a
just cleared up a whole lot of disorientation for me.
do whatever you need to do to maintain CORRECT habits. In this case, if you are going to count, use the correct count.
You’ve just convinced me!
1 + a 2 + a 3 + a 4 + a
Notice that you have four beats in your sequence of twelve pulses. There should also be four beats in your sequence of sixteen pulses:
1 e + a 2 e + a 3 e + a 4 e + a
As I’m sure you are aware, if you tap your foot to the four beats, it’s easy to move from the triple-pulse to duple-pulse structure, which is required in some rhythms.
By changing my triple pulse counting to the above…yes ..I’ve found it easy to switch between duple and triple pulse structure. Not that it’s something I’m doing now in my particular practice, but I was able to do it immediately and easily, just by changing the way I count the triple pulse.
Sometimes it’s the very simple basic stuff.........man, a light just turned on for me!
I only count when grasping the rhythm, I’ve got a pretty good internal metronome, and practice with clave or short bell(when called for) as metronome.
There is a growing movement to notate, and thus COUNT, the music correctly.
I’m glad to hear that. I much prefer (musical) notation for conga rhythms.
It can convey so much more (e.g. phrasing, dynamics) to the reader to get the proper feel for a rhythm.
Here are some books that write four beats (one cycle of clave) in one measure…
"The Tomas Cruz Conga Method Vols. 1,2,3", written by Kevin Moore. I’m credited with "conceptual guidance" in these books, so naturally, I agree with its notation and counting system.
I don’t want to hijack this thread off into another direction , so I’ll post my observations HERE
Good luck with your book Mathieu, I think David has offered you some very constructive observations.
Edited By Joseph on 1204140789
Posted:
Wed Feb 27, 2008 7:41 pm
by Garvin
I think its ironic that this whole discussion of soloing on djembe has basically boiled down to a discussion on counting, something that is all but absent in the music in its real-life applications.
I understand the need to count in order for Westerners to comprehend this stuff, but I remember some really funny exchanges between one of my teachers and a drummer before when he asked where the "one" was. My teacher had no idea... He kept counting one everywhere and we all laughed about it. Seriously though, great input from everyone. I like that the forum members here care enough about this stuff to want to get it right. Great info!
Posted:
Wed Feb 27, 2008 10:37 pm
by Joseph
Those concepts are probably alien to them and their attempt to answer you could very easily confuse you even further.
...that pesky gulf in perception...
if you must get a metrical reference, ask them to play the accompanying clave or bell pattern, or demonstrate the dance steps
...the bridge across the gulf...
Well stated!
Edited By Joseph on 1204151914
Posted:
Thu Feb 28, 2008 2:12 am
by Joseph
what we N. Americans call 3-2 rumba clave
"Uno, Dos! ... Uno, Dos, Tres!"
Interesting how that is counted.
3-2 rumba counted as 2-3
Isn't the second Uno in that line considered in the 3 side of the 3-2 rumba clave?
To clarify:
When I think of 3-2 rumba clave in a 4 beat measure,
I envision:
3 clave articulations in the first 2 beats of the measure,
2 clave articulations in the second 2 beats of the measure
I realize this is so much intellectualizing gobbledygook, and its all about grasping a feel for the rhythm.
Nevertheless, an interesting take on it.
Somehow I think the above is violating rule #2 :p
Edited By Joseph on 1204171574
Posted:
Thu Feb 28, 2008 3:40 am
by davidpenalosa
taikonoatama wrote:davidpenalosa wrote:RULE#2 Never ask your African or Cuban folklorist teacher if it's "3-2, or 2-3?"
Yeah, no kidding. Things can get confusing on several levels, one of which I never imagined until I experienced it first hand when I was taking lessons with Carlos Aldama. He counts standard rumba clave ...
x . . x . . . x . . x . x . . .
... out loud, for the class as:
1 . . 2 . . . 1 . . 2 . 3 . . .
As I've said several times in this forum, the 3-2, 2-3 concept and terminology is not applicable to folkloric music. It does not apply to the on-beat emphasis of a rhythm, where in clave a percussion part enters or where a song begins. It only refers to which side of clave a chord progression begins.
One source of proof of this is the fact that Cuban folklorists do not relate to 3-2, 2-3. However, teachers like Carlos Aldama have had many North American and European students ask them if something was "3-2 or 2-3 clave". What ends up happening is the folklorists use the terminology incorrectly in an effort to help their students:
"1 . . 2 . . . 1 . . 2 . 3 . . ."
Then, some students try to read into this, looking for some kind of message, some insight they may be missing. Folklorists like Carlos have so much to offer, they are like walking encyclopedias. However, this is just another case of misunderstanding what 3-2, 2-3 is.
The first conga drum teachers in the USA were band drummers who understood clave through the prism of popular music. They did not grow up within the folkloric context; they didn't come from those neighborhoods where rumba and bata were part of the social fabric. So, these early North American drummers improperly applied 3-2, 2-3 to all the clave-based music they played. This whole confusion with 3-2, 2-3 has a long history in North America. It's going to take awhile to straighten it out.
It would appear we have strayed from the topic of the djembe book.
-David
Edited By davidpenalosa on 1204170154