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Posted: **Fri Aug 15, 2008 12:50 pm**

Sorry, I needed to draw more folks in with that headline.

I just ordered a set of Toca Classic Steel Timbales, size 13" and 14". Apparently, they don't make these anymore, or else they are now called Pete Escovedo Signatures. Anyway, I just hoped someone had some info on these because there was very little to read on the Toca website, or anywhere on the internet for that matter (including youtube). On most sites they listed for between $280 and $300, and I got a set on clearance for $214, so I figured it was a good deal. Anyone have any experience with Toca? Thanks...

Posted: **Sat Aug 16, 2008 12:13 am**

Garvin....I don't think your timbales are the same as the Pete Escovedo's. I aquired a set of those classic steel timbales for a brother in law of mine and here is what i found.. The shells are very thick. When you do the cascaras the sound is one that is very solid, almost as if the shells were made a little too thick. You are definitely getting your money's worth, no doubt. The sides are all smooth, similar to JCR timbales which makes it easy to hit the sticks on the sides. If I recall correctly, you use a drum tuning key like those for a snare drum but they tune very easily, the stand is very sturdy. I think it is made by gibraltar. You got a nice deal, and I am sure you will like them very much. Please follow up on your thoughts on the cascaras ok? I want to know what you think about that.

Will.

Posted: **Sat Aug 16, 2008 3:55 pm**

Thanks for that. I was worried that the first I would hear was "those are crap and you are an idiot for buying Toca's"... I'm aware of the thickness of the shells, and am actually hoping to err on the side of thicker rather than ending up with a thin shell that rattles when I play cascara as some of the Aspire and Players series drums that I've heard. I will post pictures and feedback when I get them. Please, if anyone else has anything else to add I'd appreciate it.

Posted: **Mon Sep 01, 2008 8:11 pm**

are these the same drums you're discussing? I got mine on eBay and the sides are thick and smooth as described, with the drum key tuning and Gibraltar stand.

Posted: **Tue Sep 02, 2008 12:43 pm**

Yeah, those are them. I've been really happy with them so far. The only real complaint I have is that I had to take the bell mounting arm to the hardware store and have them grind it down because it was too big to fit any of my bells on it. The drums sound fine though. Good deep tone on the hembra and I do like the smooth shells for playing the cascara.

Posted: **Wed Sep 03, 2008 3:48 am**

I love them. Granted, they are the first and only ones I own ;-)

but I got an incredible deal on them, I guess because they were missing the cowbell attachment post which I was able to order and replace. It does get hard to fit some of those eyebolts, but with some determination and 'elbow grease' I've managed to fit quite a few on, as I am forever changing bell and block configurations (though almost exclusively LP bells, so I can't comment on other manufacturers). I love the sound and playability, to me the LPs I've tried sound very pingy/ringy in comparison, although I guess that is a sound some (most?)people prefer.. It is my understanding that the manufacturer was trying to emulate the look and feel of oldskool Leedys, not sure where I got the notion and it is possibly my own imagination, but after googling some Leedy images I'd have to say it is pretty close. I've not yet experimented with anything other than the stock heads, though I keep replacement clear Ambassadors around for a rainy day. I hope you own't mind my posting some more pictures of my favorite timbalero, he practices every day and at two years old is already twice the musician his old man could hope to be.

Posted: **Wed Sep 03, 2008 4:01 am**

for purposes of comparison, here is a picture of mid 50s Leedys

David

Posted: **Wed Sep 03, 2008 7:26 am**

dladas wrote:for purposes of comparison, here is a picture of mid 50s Leedys

David

Cutest timbales I've ever seen!

Posted: **Wed Sep 03, 2008 2:54 pm**

Ha! That stand looks like its about to collapse under the weight of the drums...

Posted: **Thu Sep 04, 2008 12:25 am**

dladas wrote: for purposes of comparison, here is a picture of mid 50s Leedys

When I hold my mouse over the picture, it says something like "WFL tims"; meaning these are probably WFL timbales, not Leedy. They don't look like Leedys anyway.

WFL = William F. Ludwig. Ludwig could not use his own name as a brand for his products, because it was sold to Conn. That was from 1929-1955. During that period, Ludwig tagged his drums "WFL".
In fact, in 1929 Leedy suffered the same fate. In 1955 - at the same time Ludwig regained his own name to use for his products, Leedy was bought by Slingerland. Up to this date, Conn at first maintained the production lines of each of these companies. Later, in 1950, they merged the names into "Leedy & Ludwig".

The timbales depicted on Cachao's Descargas record with Guillermo Barreto are probably Ludwigs or WFL. The timbales on the photo of Tito Puente on Jim Payne's book are "Leedy & Ludwig". This was the famous "Humberto Morales" model. Later Tito endorsed Slingerland timbales (as seen in the 1963's catalogue). I own a set of Slingerland era Leedys.

I don't think any American drum company was interested in manufacturing Latin-American timbales before the "Rhumba craze" in the 1930s. Leedy was fast to offer their own maracas in 1931, promoted by Paul Whiteman's drummer George Marsh. The ad in the "Leedy Drum Topics" magazine read: "The RUMBA. A Great New Chance for Drummers". In the 1941 edition of this magazine, Willie Rodriguez and Angel R. Pagan are pictured with Leedy drum sets incorporating timbales. These were bowl-shaped like miniature timpani. I cannot assure that they were Leedy products as well, but I would guess so.

Thomas

Posted: **Thu Sep 04, 2008 7:20 pm**

Thanks for the correction, Thomas - even the website I cropped the photo from identified it as mid 50s WFLs in 10&1/2"&13", but I paid no heed as I had no idea WTF WFL meant ;-)

Are the Humberto Morales model timbales the same ones pictured with Ubaldo Nieto in the Henry Adler book? They look similar to the ones young Tito is playing in the Jim Payne book; and they also seem to feature the smooth sides rather than the 'corrugated' type shells that are prevalent today (LPs for example).

David

PS I found an article on Victor Rendon's webiste, an interview with Monchito Muñoz that touches on the development of the Humberto Morales timbales: http://victorrendon.com/interviews/monchito-munoz/

Posted: **Thu Sep 04, 2008 7:37 pm**

Poking around Victor Rendon's website, I found the photo below - these appear to be the same drums pictured with Ubaldo, young Tito, and Rendon himself in his book - they are identified as Leedy-Ludwig - are they the Humberto Morales model?

David

Posted: **Thu Sep 04, 2008 10:16 pm**

Are the Humberto Morales model timbales the same ones pictured with Ubaldo Nieto in the Henry Adler book?

I had the book a long time ago, but lost it somehow. I don't remember Ubaldo being pictured in the book, but on one of the first pages Humberto Morales himself was shown together with Henry Adler on one pair of timbales. Humberto lent his name to the book, although I don't know how much he actually contributed. Probably he provided the musical material, while Henry Adler notated it. I remember there was a final section of rhythm scores added by Ubaldo Nieto.

I would have to see the photo again to check of what brand the timbales were. I am pretty sure, however, that he would not have himself photographed with anything else but the instruments named after him; he was endorsing Leedy & Ludwig, after all. Leedy advertised that Humberto (brother of bandleader Noro Morales) was playing their timbales, as did Tito Puente, Frank Chico Guerrero, Antoniano Escolies, and Ubaldo Nieto.

The Leedy & Ludwig "Humberto Morales" model has remained the type of timbal mostly associated with that old-time-Mambo vintage paila sound, as far as I know, and to any timbalero they would be a once-forever-achievement and prized (priced, too) possession (if they can find them).

In his book, Victor Rendon is shown with these beautiful timbales. Funny he is mentioned endorsing LP instruments in this book, although it is more than obvious that on the photos there are no LP instruments, except for a Jam Block; even the bells are JCR. The brand of the timbales actually depicted is not revealed; but from the lugs I can tell they are Leedys of whatever generation. The name tags are not visible in the pictures. They could be post-55 Slinger-Leedys like mine. Comparing Slinger-Leedys with the authentic Leedy & Ludwig "Humberto Morales" model, I found out that on the "Humberto Morales" timbs the tension rods do not extend over the rims, which they do with Slinger-Leedys, because the claws are differently shaped. (But you can always substitute claws and rods.)

If you know for sure that Rendon's timbales are Leedy & Ludwig, they should be the "Humberto Morales" model. I never heard they built another model but this at the same time (from 1950 to 1955).

I would like to know whether Leedy (or any other American drum company) actually produced any timbales before 1950, and what they looked like ...

Thomas

Posted: **Sun Sep 07, 2008 3:37 am**

On Victor Rendon's website, Monchito Muñoz puts both the Leedy & Ludwig merge and the development of the Humberto Morales timbales at a date just slightly earlier than '50. here is an excerpt:

LP: Many of the Leedy timbales have different badges that say Leedy-Ludwig or simply Leedy? What is the difference between the two?
MM: The ones that say only Leedy are older. The Leedy products were merged with Ludwig which became Leedy-Ludwig. This happened in the late 1940’s. I have one of the first ten pairs of Leedy timbales. The one who came up with those timbales was the technician who worked for Henry Adler. Uba and Humberto were using timbales that I believe were made by “El Indio” in the barrio. They were made of metal like in Cuba. However, the metal was very weak and so was the stand. They were made by hand with calfskin wrapped around the rim. Whenever Uba or Humberto would break a skin, they would take it to Henry’s technician to have a new skin tucked. The technician would always jokingly say, “Ah, esto es una mierda, una puerqueria” (That is a piece of garbage). One day I will build a good set of timbales”.

LP: How did these timbales become known as the Humberto Morales Model?
MM: Well the technician whose first name was Charlie built those drums. I don’t remember his last name (Tappan). He was a drummer also. He presented these timbales to the Leedy Company. Uba and Humberto tried them out and everybody just went crazy over them. They were very professional. So, Henry Adler sold the patent to Leedy. The first ten sets that were built before they went out into the market came to Henry Adler. He gave one set to Uba, Humberto, various others, and me since I was his disciple. I believe the cost was about $75.00 with case and everything.

Gene Krupa was endorsing the Radio Kings made by Slingerland. Therefore, Leedy needed a model name for these timbales. These people didn’t know anything about Latin music. They were Americans from Chicago so they asked Henry Adler for advice. The head of Leedy wanted to come to New York and go to a club and see a heavy timbalero play on these drums. Henry was going to take him to see Uba with the Machito orchestra. The timbales were going to be named after Ubaldo Nieto. When the head of Leedy came, Machito was on the road. Therefore, Henry took him to see the Noro Morales orchestra at the China Doll with Humberto on timbales. That is how the timbales became known as the Humberto Morales Model. This was around 1948 or 1949.

Posted: **Sun Sep 07, 2008 3:57 am**

Thomas - I just revisited the site that I cropped the WFL picture from, http://www.vintagedrums.com/my.html, there is a picture there of a drum that the author refers to as "1930's Leedy, heavy brass shell, 13" timbale, excellent, original." I have no way to prove or disprove his claim, but the badge is a "Leedy" one which I assume makes it before the lines merged on or before 1950:

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