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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 10:20 pm
by zumbi
Berimbau wrote:
"All in all there is little compelling evidence that West Africans ever had that much direct contact with cultures outside of their continent until the intensification of the European slave trade."

various west african nations used to travel to central and south american for trading purpose at least two centuries before columbus as it it is extensively documented in a number of studies a good summary of which can be found in:

They Came Before Columbus: The African Presence in Ancient America
by Ivan Van Sertima

in the 13th century mansa musa, the emperor of mali, made his hajj (islamic pilgrimage to makka) and it's likley the mande people he leaded established trade routes to the middle east and maybe beyond.
trade routes were well established beetwen west and east africa from the most ancient times and beetwen east africa and middle and far east so a level of cultural exchange beetwen west afica and asia is more than likley.
one love

PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 6:17 pm
by zaragenca
Welcome Zumbi,the whole point is that the exchange is been happening for centuries the Egyptians have exchange with the Assyrians, with the Jews,(which were at one point used as slaves),with theArabians,with the Greek,(a lot of Greece/scholars studied in Egypt), later the Romans,and the Muslims...The Chinese came to Africa before the Europeans….So I rest my case for while..Dr. Zaragemca

PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 4:27 am
by Berimbau
Dear Zumbi & Dr. Z,
I actually happen to know Prof. Van Sertima from my days at Rutgers Univ. He happens to be a very nice gentleman but I can honestly tell you that his book is full of SH*T and has LONG been discounted by serious scholars everywhere. His evidence is thinner than some of Dr. Z's tripe, and his attempts to link the Olmec sculptures with West African archetypes are just pathetic. It is merely race-based pseudo-scholarship that does nothing for our understanding of African history and even less for scholars of African ancestry!
What you guys need to do is stop posting your nonsense and obtain a decent education somewhere. Your type of non-analytical gullibility is exactly why Bush is still your president!!

Lots of Luck!


PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 5:09 am
by davidpenalosa
Welcome back Berimbau,
Can you off the top of your head, recommend any books that specifically discount "The African Presence in Ancient America"? It seems like we have been over this territory before. I believe I already set the record straight on this by the way; those heads were placed in the Yucatan by space aliens. What does it take to get some respect around here?!

PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 3:16 pm
by zumbi
dear berimbau,
i am not a scholar but i trust my good common sense and my experience tell me that europeans tended to stamp their "i was the first here" stamp just because most other civilizations never tought of travelling around with stamps (or flags) :)
(not to mention my countryman cristoforo colombo who tought he had reached asia)
as for bush, i don't know what you're talking about: you hail from memphis, tn so it look like he is YOUR president, surely not mine.
but let's not get caught in politics again.

PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 9:55 pm
by zaragenca
Well I don't know what is the tripe that Berimbau is talking about,but if he is trying to deny the Egyotian/Assyrian connection,(which happenned during egyptian invation),and to deny the connection with the Jews,(which is even mentioned in the bible), and the connection with the Greeks,and the Romans,and the Muslims,(which all were there in that territory),that would be real hard core!....Dr. Zaragemca

PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 1:32 pm
by Berimbau
This reply is for Zumbi and David only. Over the years it is PAINFULLY obvious that Dr. Z is far too fond of his ignorant ego to ever learn anything. He already knows it ALL, just like his president!!
Afrocentrism, like Eurocentrism, is a racist philosophy. They share a common history in the colonial expansion of Europeans outside of their home continent. We know that Europeans exploited, denigrated, killed, raped, and tortured millions of non-European peoples in their attempts at dominating their colonial subjects. African peoples were only one of several targets in the European scheme.
To assuage whatever guilt they might have felt, the good Christian Europeans developed a mythology that exalted such racist terrorists as Columbus, Andrew Jackson, and George Bush as "explorers" or "freedom fighters." As a psychological reaction to colonialism, slavery, Jim Crow, and the continuing racial inequities in the USA, many people of African descent have created a mythological past that hopes to assuage the many humiliations of their historic debasement. Identifying with their oppressors, the Afrocentrics have created a feel-good mythology that suggests that the very best of European culture was created by "Blacks." Of course the Europeans robbed them of this great treasure! Tragically, much of Afrocentric mythology mirrors closely the very colonialism that oppressed African peoples in the first place! Colombus didn't discover America, the Africans did!!! It's in a book, so it has to be true!
Actually, the Native peoples of America discovered America. Unfortunately, when these Native peoples were finally "discovered" by the Europeans, they were.......... exploited, denigrated, killed, raped, and tortured! Now who wants that legacy?
But of course we all know that Africans, Asians, and Native Americans all lived in total peace and harmony until the Europeans came, right? Unfortunately, nearly every archaeologist can lead you to several mass graves and tell you all about ethnic cleansing, pre-colonial style! But we do LOVE our mythology, and yes that type of non-critical thinking is exactly how Bush got the US into Iraq!
Now really NONE of this is pertinent to Afro-Cuban music, so why keep bringing it up? There are many interesting things we might learn about the Yoruba, Fon, Kongo, or Cuban peoples here, but we keep going back to Egypt! This has NOTHING to do with Afro-Cuban music!!!!!!! For the interested, read Mary Lefkowitz's comments on the disinformation of Afrocentrism here:

or if you prefer mythology, keep reading that Afrocentric tripe.
Now Zumbi, I am originally from Brooklyn, N.Y. and no longer live in Memphis. Don't you think it's ironic that Memphis takes its name from an ancient Egyptian city, is 70% African-American, has a fourth term African-American mayor, and.........uh oh, I think your racist assumptions are showing.


PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 4:48 pm
by zaragenca
Well Berimbau,I thought we were discussing sobjects,not a personal rethoric, really which for one day that I would an ignorant...but beside of all,.. who is my president?, know something that I don't even know.Dr. Zaragemca