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Posted: **Wed Sep 20, 2006 6:02 pm**

This is in relation to the comment of Olsongo in the Giraldo's posting...In fact the Chinese went to Africa before the Europeans and did a lot of trade with the Africans,(during the time of the emperor Yung Lo,(Ming/Dynasty),a Buddhist.Dr. Zaragemca

Posted: **Thu Sep 21, 2006 1:59 am**

zaragenca wrote:This is in relation to the comment of Olsongo in the Giraldo's posting...In fact the Chinese went to Africa before the Europeans and did a lot of trade with the Africans,(during the time of the emperor Yung Lo,(Ming/Dynasty),a Buddhist.Dr. Zaragemca

Sorry, couldnt resist.

What exactly is it you want to discuss in this thread?

Posted: **Thu Sep 21, 2006 1:12 pm**

The Chinese invented rumba and were also the drummer on ALL of the Beatles records....however, they did NOT shoot JFK, Jim Morrison did!!!!!!!!

lol,

Berimbau

Posted: **Thu Sep 21, 2006 4:18 pm**

it is an open topic for questioning or adding comment,(somebody mentioned in the Giraldo's posting of Shango going to China,also Olsongo mentioned related topic of Taoist and Yorubas/Culture,etc...I think is somebody would like to discussed the relationship that the chinese could have with Africa,a new posting would be better.Dr. Zaragemca

Posted: **Thu Sep 21, 2006 4:20 pm**

Serious question, is there mention of how said journey was performed to China and back? Also what time frame this took or how long it took etc and /what era/year it was?

Edited By ABAKUA on 1158855685

Posted: **Thu Sep 21, 2006 6:10 pm**

The chinese created the biggest naval expedition of the time,yje admiral was Cheng-Ho,the dates are,(1371-1433).Dr. Zaragemca

Posted: **Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:55 pm**

Hey guys,
You can all ridicule the dr - but he's right in what he says about China and Africa. If you know something about history the Chinese have been distant trading partners with various parts of Africa from as early as 2200 years ago (the time of the Han dynasty - 206 B.C. to A.D. 220).

In 1415 a pair of giraffes was presented to the Chinese emperor Yong Le by envoys from the African kingdom of Malindi (near what is now Kenya):
"In China they thought the giraffe (despite its having one horn too many) was a unicorn (ch'i-lin), whose arrival, according to Confucian tradition, meant that a
sage of the utmost wisdom and benevolence was in their presence.

It was a great gift, therefore, to bring to the ambitious ruler of a young dynasty. The giraffes were presented to the emperor Yong'le by exotic envoys from the kingdom of Malindi, whom the Chinese treated royally.

They and the marvelous gift so excited China's curiosity about Africa that Zheng He sent word to the kingdom of Mogadishu (then one of the most powerful trading states in East Africa and now the capitol of modern Somalia) and to other African states, inviting them to send ambassadors to the Ming emperor."

"The African emissaries to the Ming throne came with fabulous gifts, including objects for which entrepreneurs had long before managed to create a market in the Far East--tortoise shell, elephant ivory, and rhinoceros-horn medicine. On their many visits they also brought zebras, ostriches, and other exotica.
In return, the Ming court sent gold, spices, silk, and other presents. Zheng He was sent with his fleet of great ships on yet another voyage across the Indian Ocean to accompany some of the foreign emissaries home. This escort was the first of several imperially supported trips to Africa."

"The Emperor's Giraffe"
by Samuel M. Wilson
in Natural History (Vol. 101, No. 12, December 1992)

Posted: **Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:00 pm**

I think you misunderstood the jest.

Chinese trade in Africa is well documented and known by many people, the info is easilly available in libraries, online and by many published and respected/credible writers.
The jest was in the vagueness of the initial post.

My question was a serious one, relating to what year/era this voyage of Chango to China was.

Posted: **Tue Oct 03, 2006 4:13 pm**

Well I didn' come with the subject of Shango being in China,I only have knowledge of the chinese being in West Africa and America,before the European,thanks Pavloconga for your posting.Dr. Zaragemca

Posted: **Tue Oct 03, 2006 5:41 pm**

ABAKUA wrote:I think you misunderstood the jest.

Chinese trade in Africa is well documented and known by many people, the info is easilly available in libraries, online and by many published and respected/credible writers.
The jest was in the vagueness of the initial post.

My question was a serious one, relating to what year/era this voyage of Chango to China was.

Abakua,

I'll have to hone up to starting that issue. In the context in which it was mentioned, I noted that these are references in Rezos and Cantos for Shango. That being the case, there is surely references to this both Oriki ( song poems that are the origin of Cuban rezos) and Ese Ifa ( Ifa poems). These type sources don't have dates included. One must remember also that these type sources are often allegorical in structure and should not be taken as literal history despite making reference to history. The question then becomes did Shango ( the 4th Alafin of Oyo) actually travel to China or did Jakuta or Oramfe make such a trip. This is also to assume that the latter two were humans at one time. I personally, don't know but given the fact that there was early interaction with China it is a possibility. Essentially, the Western position on history is that nothing significant happened until they were involved and thus indigenous sources. So the reality is that we may never know.

Best regards,
Facundo

Posted: **Tue Oct 03, 2006 9:18 pm**

I would like to take the opportunity to set the record straight,since I have seen the same number on several articles,Shango was the third Alafin of Oyo.Dr. Zaragemca

Posted: **Wed Oct 04, 2006 12:56 am**

pavloconga wrote:They and the marvelous gift so excited China's curiosity about Africa that Zheng He sent word to the kingdom of Mogadishu (then one of the most powerful trading states in East Africa and now the capitol of modern Somalia) and to other African states, inviting them to send ambassadors to the Ming emperor."

The Chinese did indeed vistit EAST Africa via the Indian Ocean. However, The Yoruba of West Africa were separated from the Indian Ocean by hundereds of miles of dense tropical forest and separated from the Mediterranean Sea by the Sahara Desert. Surely goods from West Africa could have traveled to Asia by way of caravan, but I doubt if anyone could provide any evidence that Yoruba ambassadors made it to Mogadishu, let alone Asia. I'm saying this just in case someone is confused,
-David

Edited By davidpenalosa on 1159938622

Posted: **Wed Oct 04, 2006 12:43 pm**

Anthropologists has long ago explained how prestigious trade items such as Chinese pottery ended up in pre-Colombian Norse sites. Group A trades with Group B. Then Group B trades with C, then C with D. It doesn't take long for artifacts associated with Group A to end up in Group D's treasure trove.
All in all there is little compelling evidence that West Africans ever had that much direct contact with cultures outside of their continent until the intensification of the European slave trade. This fact really bothers some Afro-Centrists for some reason, yet the same is true of most culture groups. It was the Europeans with a growing population due to an expanding economy, better nutrition and healthcare that sought to colonize other parts of the world.
As proud as this might make Pat Buchanon and other white racists, as envious as it seems to make some people of color, the fact remains that it was a special set of circumstances that made the Europeans so mobile. Armed with their Christian ethic, they invaded and looted lands that did not belong to them, willfully spread deadly diseases, raped women and killed children. Then they kidnapped and enslaved 17 million Africans!!
Only Charles Manson could be proud of this legacy, and yet US voters re-elected George "War Crimes" Bush to the highest office in the land. We are now killing thousands of people so that you won't be inconvenienced at the gas pump as you drive that Hummer to the mall! But hey, screw the Geneva Convention, God Bless America, and Jesus loves you.................he'll even forgive you for raping another Iraqi kid!!
OK, so I went off again instead of simply answering the question.

Sorry and have a blessed day,

Berimbau

Posted: **Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:58 pm**

Berimbau,
What about inter-gallactic travel by the Egyptian-Yoruba-Olmec Axis?
-David

Posted: **Wed Oct 04, 2006 2:34 pm**

Dear David,
But aren't those thugs the very same ones who buried all the WMDs in the desert sand just to embarrass our president? Now I'm really getting concerned about your dwinmdling patriotism!! Say twelve Hail Marys and pray for our troops!!

lol,

Berimbau

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Chinese in Africa