Giraldo Rodriguez-Afro Tambores Bata - by Tomas Altmann

Let's discuss about the origin and history of this beautiful instrument...

Postby zaragenca » Mon Jul 31, 2006 5:45 pm

Well it look clear to me that it couldn't be done in the Panart/Studios,neither in Cuba,(both Girardo Rodriguez and Jesus Perez),knew that it would not be accepted in Cuba Adrian Rodriguez singing liturgical music,(without doing it right),the set up of the set where Jesus Perez is playing Iya/Bata, is one of those Mexican cabarets,where some of the shows was taking place at that time like,'Las Mulatas de Fuego', which used to go on tour in Mexico,(that's the reason that the picture was taken from the top,to disguise the place), in Cuba all the pictures of shows were taken frontal,showing the background of the place,... in the picture all the 'Bataleros' are dressing the same way,(that happened in the 60's when the Cuban government started requesting the Bataleros in the Conjunto Folklorico National to dress with the same clothes, when going out of Cuba,...that situation and the misspelling of names,... the 'mono'/track of the recording as it have been said,...etc,etc,etc,...is telling to your brother Dr. Zaragemca that it is clandestine job.....The last picture reflect, Raul 'Nasaco' Diaz as being the teacher of (the other person look to me as Jesus Perez,(Raul is playing Iya/Bata in the picture)......In the picture with Bola de Nieves,(still Jesus Perez is the one holding the Iya/Bata.Dr Zaragemca



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Postby Thomas Altmann » Mon Jul 31, 2006 6:49 pm

Berimbau: Thanks for your compliment. I'm glad you like it. To be honest, I like it too. I had been searching for this kind of information on the record for years. Thanks to all the people who supported me and contributed to the article, I was able to compose it the way it is. I am 100% conscious of the fact that it was basically them who made it, especially John Amira.

Dr. Zaragemca:

1. Although it is interesting to hear that these "clandestine recordings" obviously took place, it certainly doesn't apply to the recording we are discussing; if you listened to it just once, and I'm sure everybody would agree, you would realize immediately that this is a studio recording and not a bootleg production of a live show. I am not going to detail that.

2. The Santero #1 recordings were made in the Panart studios 1947 and 1948. They have background choir parts and other features that come stylistically close to using a voice like that of Adriano. It's amazing how much stylized and "cultivated" (or tamed) Afro-Cuban religious music was arranged even at that time. So if Cubans (or at least enough Cubans) obviously accepted the arteficialized (kitschy?) arrangements on the Santero record, why not accept Adriano?

When I was in Cuba for my first time in 1984, I remember sitting in the living room of my teacher Rodolfo "El Moro" (of LA 440), and there was this old man, a conga player, and when I played the cassette for them, he was sitting quietly in the rocking chair, and - I'm not lying - tears came to his eyes while he listened to that. That's how much he accepted it.

Greetings,

Thomas
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Postby zaragenca » Mon Jul 31, 2006 7:12 pm

Brother Altmann,is the recording was done in 1947/48,the picture where Jesus Perez is playing Iya/Bata,the one with Bola de Nieves,etc...Do not correlate with that time, the dressing style, the face of Jesus Perez,(which I have seen personaly),etc., have nothing to do with 1947/48....I'm still recognizing your research skills,but as a cuban I could see the details.Dr. Zaragemca



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Postby guarachon63 » Mon Jul 31, 2006 7:18 pm

Thomas, congratulations on a truly beautiful article, I love these kinds of "historical recovery" stories.

I am curious about a few things though:

1. You mention Giraldo and Adriano also played and sang on the recordings released on the "El Yambu de los Barrios" CD by Alberto Zayas. Could they be pictured on the CD cover or in that great picture on the back plate of this cd? Or also on the original LP cover?

2. Also, on which tracks on the Zayas CD can we hear Adriano? Anywhere besides coro? I always thought the only two main voices on those recordings were Carlos Embales and Roberto Maza.

3. Finally, the "coda" at the end of your article was a little hard for me to follow. Have any of these Afro Tambores Batá recordings been released on CD?

Thanks again for some valuable research.

saludos
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Postby Thomas Altmann » Mon Jul 31, 2006 10:54 pm

Guarachon:

First of all thanks for acknowledging the article.

1. You mention Giraldo and Adriano also played and sang on the recordings released on the "El Yambu de los Barrios" CD by Alberto Zayas. Could they be pictured on the CD cover or in that great picture on the back plate of this cd? Or also on the original LP cover?
</table>


Sorry, I can't tell you. I don't have this one (yet). I just knew that this CD exists and got the details from Internet record stores. I only have the "Festival in Havana".

2. Also, on which tracks on the Zayas CD can we hear Adriano? Anywhere besides coro? I always thought the only two main voices on those recordings were Carlos Embales and Roberto Maza.
</table>

See above. Adriano is also singing on Mongo's Bembe record, but he's singing coro only. So maybe it's the same on the Zayas CD.

3. Finally, the "coda" at the end of your article was a little hard for me to follow. Have any of these Afro Tambores Batá recordings been released on CD?
</table>


Oh, that must have been unclear. I was not referring to the "Afro Tambores Bata" record anymore, but to other releases of Orfeon Videovox that turned out to be re-issues of original Cuban recordings under a false name. I mentioned these as examples for the possibility that something similar might have happened with the Giraldo record. Without any further proof to the contrary, it cannot be entirely excluded that the recordings were made in Cuba in, let's say, 1954, and somehow fell in the hands of a Mexican record company in 1958 or 59. See what I mean?

Dr. Zaragemca: The 1947/48 recordings that I was referring to are not depicted there. These were released in the fifties on the Panart label. The Bola de Nieve record in the picture was issued by Orfeon about end of the fifties, I'd have to look that up. So the fashion you see is from the end of the fifties.

Thomas
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Postby ABAKUA » Tue Aug 01, 2006 12:15 am

zaragenca wrote:Brother Altmann,is the recording was done in 1947/48,the picture where Jesus Perez is playing Iya/Bata,the one with Bola de Nieves,etc...Do not correlate with that time, the dressing style, the face of Jesus Perez,(which I have seen personaly),etc., have nothing to do with 1947/48....I'm still recognizing your research skills,but as a cuban I could see the details.Dr. Zaragemca

The photo you see has nothing to do with this recording. It is a non related photo of the tamboreros in question.
You have misread Tamboricuas post and been confused.

Again, untill you have listened to the recording/own a copy or even seen the original album you cannot make such assumptions.
You have not even heard of this recording to begin with.
All you are doing is making assumptions.
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Postby zaragenca » Tue Aug 01, 2006 1:01 am

It is not my assumptions Abakua,I know this subject,(the whole presentation of this project isnot clear,(even without listening the recording,there are to many 'nebulosas',..I'm a CD's Producer,a session musician,I know the Panart/Studios upside down,back and forth and in reverse,this just doesn't even look clear,....I have to make a reference in relation to these pictures becouse it was showed there,if notbody would show the pictures,I would not talk about it,(also I was right in the time/mark again)...and still the recording studio and the date of the subjected recording,is missed in the space....Beside that, I understant what brother Altmann said about the people from out side of Cuba listening to that recording,but I already know the real deal,so I'm pretty sure that listening what Mr. Altmann himself said about the recording would be a disappointment for me,(again just me it doesn't have to do anything with anybody else).Dr. Zaragemca



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Postby zaragenca » Wed Aug 02, 2006 7:12 pm

Well I have to apologise to participants for missing a detail,(the cause is that the original documentation which I have to refresh my memory was stolen),..For the Santero recording in Panart/Studios with Obdulio Morales as musical director,with Mercedita Valdez and Celia Cruz singing,the recording was in 1947,and the bataleros are......Jesus Perez,(Iya),Trinidad Torregosa,(Ito),and Virgilio Ramirez,(Akon),"This is the same Ensemble for the picture of Tamboricua with the dancers in front of them,(1960's)."...Now this is the story,Obdulio Morales started his Afro'Folkloric show at the Marti/Theater,(1938), with Trinidad Torregosa and Chano Pozo,(among others),Jesus Perez at that time was to young to be included,..but by 1947, he,(Perez), was in the ensemble with Dr. Obdulio Morales,.. Alfredo Zayas was the one directing the Chorus in the recordings...Mercedita Valdez brought Jesus Perez into the Casinos/Clubs shows,(as one of the pictures from Tamboricua's articles in relation to Jesus Perez shows, together with Papo Angarica,and Ricardo Carballo.Dr. Zaragemca



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Postby chambelona » Wed Aug 02, 2006 7:38 pm

JohnnyConga wrote:Yo Berimbau ...I used to "hang and bang" with Morty in the Central ParK" "Rumba wars" as I called them....Morty was a nice guy and Architect by trade and master drum and chekere maker. He made Batas too....we had a great time in the Park jammin back then and Morty was a very serious cat when it came to "jammin"....if he didn't like you he wouldn't sit with you, or vice a versa....but those were the days!...."JC" Johnny Conga... :D

You're right.... "those were the days" LoL!

My dad was also Godfather to John Amiras two children.
(not in Ocha)

John Amira, a long time family friend, a highly skilled Master player, author and teacher of secular and non secular Cuban and Hatian drumming. And who lives across the street from me.

Mark Sanders / N.Y.C.
(silverspurr / silverspurr53)
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Postby Dom-k » Wed Aug 23, 2006 7:57 am

Hey im learning bata from a Santero rite now... its awsome... it helps that i know about Santeria and Lukumi....
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Postby ABAKUA » Wed Aug 23, 2006 1:32 pm

Dom-k wrote:Hey im learning bata from a Santero rite now... its awsome... it helps that i know about Santeria and Lukumi....

Welcome to the forum young Padewan, bout time you joined!
Introduce yo'self Dominic!

Below: Dom (in brown and white cap) next to me (red cap)

Image


Dom below on super tumba:

Image




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Postby JohnnyConga » Tue Aug 29, 2006 5:57 pm

Bata from Benin Africa...chek this out ....David P have you heard of these drums?...."JC" Johnny Conga...

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Postby niallgregory » Tue Aug 29, 2006 7:40 pm

I have some good recordings of bata music from benin .Crazy shit ! not exactly bedtime listening but very interesting none the less ???



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Postby davidpenalosa » Wed Aug 30, 2006 4:59 pm

JohnnyConga wrote:Bata from Benin Africa...David P have you heard of these drums?

Johnny,
Yes I have indeed, thanks to "Yoruba Drums of Benin, West Africa" (Smithsonian Folkways CD 40440). Those bata drums sound similar to the recordings I have of bata from Nigeria. The African bata sound very different from their Cuban "cousins". I think this may have been discussed in the forum before, but I believe that African bata may have changed more than Cuban bata since the early 1800's. However, there are two rhythms cited by those familar with both systems that appear to be the same, or at least, based on the same song and rhythmic motif. I am aware of more examples of shared songs beween Cuba and Brazil than I am between Cuba and Africa.

Perhaps preservation of traditions has been more important in the New World than in the Old World. I heard a second-hand story that the Nigerians said Cubans had preserved traditions to a greater extent than they had. Also, the main Nigerian clan that play bata for ceremonies don't themselves even practice the religion any more. They are Moslem and play the drums because it is their livelyhood. There is no doubt that Islam has affected Nigerian music in general. Cuba of course has had its own set of influences.
-David
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Postby davidpenalosa » Wed Aug 30, 2006 5:03 pm

PS - Johnny, what book is that from?
-David
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