Is changing the heads worth it?

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Is changing the heads worth it?

Postby scavard » Tue Aug 03, 2021 8:58 am

Hello everyone!

I have been playing for a while now most of the time concentrating on getting the martillo solid. I tried to experiment with the technique but I still cannot get that nice snappy high-pitched short accents like many others do. I don't expect to get it right away, but at this point I am thinking a lot about changing the heads. I have matador LP M201-AW and I read a lot around here that changing heads on those is night and day difference. I started to look into Remo heads and I might go for tucked nuskyns.

So my questions are:
1. Is it possible that the heads are a limitation on matadors?
2. Will changing the heads really bring that much difference in sound?
3. Will the artificial heads last (almost) forever and can they go higher in pitch?
4. Would it maybe make sense to buy a new bongo instead? (The heads are almost half of the price of a new "better" bongo here in Europe)

Thank you very much for any feedback or comments.
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Re: Is changing the heads worth it?

Postby Thomas Altmann » Tue Aug 03, 2021 10:03 am

Hi scavard,

if you decided to buy a new pair of bongos, they should be considerably better, way up above average quality. Because, for a medium class bongo, your model looks O.K. to me. I looked it up on the web, and it seems to be a mass-produced version of the original LP bongo, which is not too bad. It should be possible to get a decent sound out of it. However, while I definitely recommend Matador congas, I have never checked out a Matador bongo, so basically, I would have to touch and play it to say anything final about it.

Most original heads that come with the drums of popular brands like LP are of minor quality in my opinion. They are playable, but that's it.

It looks like the heads and flesh hoops are sitting pretty tight around the shells. That means stress on the skins and/or the glued hoops of synthetic heads. Tucked Remo's are probably a good choice.

Only my 2 cents ...

Thomas

P-S.: You wrote that you are somewhere in Europe - where? I mean, if you happen to live near my town Hamburg, you could come for a visit and bring your drums.
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Re: Is changing the heads worth it?

Postby Beatnik07 » Tue Aug 03, 2021 11:21 am

This snappy, sharp, high pitch cracking sound apparently is hard to get.

I played other bongos besides mine which is a LP Gen3, and I didn't quite get either the sound this guy gets (if that's what you are referring to in your post):


I'd say, besides the skin type (Remo Fiberskyn seems snappier than natural skins), a sufficiently high tensioning force is a big contributor to this snappy sharp cracking sound. Especially on the macho.

In my case, the problem is ... I probably don't have my bongos tuned high enough, as I am wary of the ominous cracking sounds one gets when increasing the tensioning force past a certain level, and I somewhat worry about damaging the wooden shell or the skin or the tensioning hardware ...

So these days I pursue my practice unfettered by probably less than optimally tuned and sounding bongos. :mrgreen:
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Re: Is changing the heads worth it?

Postby scavard » Tue Aug 03, 2021 12:00 pm

Thomas Altmann wrote:if you decided to buy a new pair of bongos, they should be considerably better, way up above average quality

That is the real struggle. I would pay 160 euros for two new heads, but better quality pair of bongos will cost at least twice as much. I have no problem investing more money, but the question is whether I really need it now or later when I get genuinely better at it. But I guess the idea of having multiple instruments to try different qualities and setups is very intriguing.

Thomas Altmann wrote:P-S.: You wrote that you are somewhere in Europe - where? I mean, if you happen to live near my town Hamburg, you could come for a visit and bring your drums.

I'm from Czech Republic so it is not that close unfortunately. But thank you for you kindness anyway :)
Last edited by scavard on Tue Aug 03, 2021 2:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is changing the heads worth it?

Postby scavard » Tue Aug 03, 2021 12:11 pm

Beatnik07 wrote:I played other bongos besides mine which is a LP Gen3, and I didn't quite get either the sound this guy gets (if that's what you are referring to in your post):


I'd say, besides the skin type (Remo Fiberskyn seems snappier than natural skins), a sufficiently high tensioning force is a big contributor to this snappy sharp cracking sound. Especially on the macho.

Yes, this is exactly the sound I was referring to. Do you have any experience with Remo Fiberskyn or Nuskyn?

Beatnik07 wrote:In my case, the problem is ... I probably don't have my bongos tuned high enough, as I am wary of the ominous cracking sounds one gets when increasing the tensioning force past a certain level, and I somewhat worry about damaging the wooden shell or the skin or the tensioning hardware ...

So these days I pursue my practice unfettered by probably less than optimally tuned and sounding bongos. :mrgreen:

I feel the same way. I don't really think I am good at tuning my bongos and the higher I tune it, the more distress I feel afterwards that the head or shell would crack. I also hear there are more overtones the higher it is tuned, so I cannot get a clean open tone. Practicing without good sound is ok to some extent I guess. After practice, when I listen to some records or videos, I feel demotivated that I don't sound the same. And the main question here is whether I ever will :lol:
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Re: Is changing the heads worth it?

Postby Chtimulato » Wed Aug 04, 2021 9:21 am

After practice, when I listen to some records or videos, I feel demotivated that I don't sound the same.


Don't forget these guys have years of practice. The longer you play, the better you'll sound. And don't forget either we are like sportsmen/women : we need to warm up before actually playing. I do at any case : I feel I sound better after 20 to 30 minutes playing or warming up.

And the main question here is whether I ever will


Of course you will. It's just a matter of time.
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Re: Is changing the heads worth it?

Postby jorge » Wed Aug 04, 2021 3:12 pm

I have the Matador bongo and did not like the Matador skins. Although the macho skin did not break yet, I go through a lot of skins on the macho bongos compared with all my other congas and the hembra bongo skins, so I put the Remo Tucked Skyndeep on the macho side and left the natural Matador skin on the hembra. This is the Remo "skin" I used: https://remo.com/products/product/tucke ... 5-S4-SD003
It sounds very good. I have been putting thicker cowhide skins on the macho bongo to get a drier sound, but they require a really strong shell, ring and lugs. The Matador lugs are 5/16" and not that strong looking. The Remo head tunes up well with a little less tension on the lugs than the thick cowhide macho. I tuned it up and down a few times to hear how it sounded at different pitches, and then left it at a moderately high pitch without tuning or detuning. After a year the skin looks and sounds completely unchanged, but the 4 tuning lugs are all bent a little straighter. I think they bent early on when I was trying out different pitches and tuned up very high, I just didn't notice until later.
The Matador shell is very well built and the rims are solid, I think it is a great bongo for everyday use. Doesn't sound quite as nice as my Skin on Skin bongo with thick cowhide skins on both the hembra and macho, but it sounds pretty good and the macho is a little easier to play than the natural skin. I still haven't gotten used to the overly smooth feel of the plastic head. In fact, I hate the idea of plastic skins as well as the sound of all the plastic skins I have heard on congas, but this Remo macho head on the bongo sounds pretty close to what a natural skin sounds like. I might even someday bite the bullet and try the same type skin on the hembra, but not just yet. Regarding cost, it is too early to tell but I suspect the Remo plastic head will outlast 2 or 3 natural macho skins, and wind up paying for itself. Ask me in a few more years. Either way, you do need to invest some in maintenance of any instrument.

By the way, I almost always hear a cracking sound when I tune natural skins up on congas and bongos. That is the sound of the skin slipping on the bearing edge of the shell. The alternative, to lubricate the underside of the skin at the bearing edge with grease or manteca de corojo, solves that problem but several times has caused my skins to rip at the bearing edge. The grease in that high stress area weakens the skin so I don't do that anymore. My congas sometimes spontaneously make that cracking sound in humid weather as the skin top surface expands and loosens with the humidity and the tighter skin around the edge pulls the skin down over the bearing edge surface.
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Re: Is changing the heads worth it?

Postby Chtimulato » Wed Aug 04, 2021 3:18 pm

The alternative, to lubricate the underside of the skin at the bearing edge with grease or manteca de corojo, solves that problem but several times has caused my skins to rip at the bearing edge.


Some people do the same, using candle wax instead of something fat/greasy.
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Re: Is changing the heads worth it?

Postby jorge » Wed Aug 04, 2021 3:27 pm

I have tried that too, I think it does alleviate the cracking sound, but I have yet to see if it decreases the useful life of the skin. Unfortunately, I did not document which drums I used the wax on, so I have to wait until a skins rips and see if there was wax on it. In theory, the wax should not soak into the skin and weaken it. Do you have or have you heard of any experience with wax lubricated skins that would support either using it or not?
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Re: Is changing the heads worth it?

Postby Chtimulato » Wed Aug 04, 2021 4:42 pm

Do you have or have you heard of any experience with wax lubricated skins that would support either using it or not?


Yes and no. I know some people do it regularily, but I have no other feedback. I know they rub the bearing edge and the inside of the skin (where it meets the bearing edge) with a candle.
Maybe I also did it once or two, I don't remember. But my skins can last a very long time. I own a Valje LP bongó for instance, which I bought in 1988, and the hembra's still got the original skin. I try to take care of them.
I know it's also a joinery trick (the equivalent of grease with metal threads) : you can rub an old drawer with a candle before reputting it in a cabinet for instance, it will slide (open and close) in a more gentle way, without jamming.
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Re: Is changing the heads worth it?

Postby scavard » Thu Aug 05, 2021 7:25 am

jorge wrote:so I put the Remo Tucked Skyndeep on the macho side and left the natural Matador skin on the hembra. This is the Remo "skin" I used: https://remo.com/products/product/tucke ... 5-S4-SD003

Thank you so much for sharing your experience with matadors. The idea of only changing macho for now is very appealing to me. I looked up some remo skin comparisons and indeed the skyndeep series might be what I am looking for. Unfortunately there is no easy way to buy this one in Europe (or at least the tucked version), unlike nuskyn or fiberskyn. I may reach out to Thomann and ask whether they are able to get it somehow.
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Re: Is changing the heads worth it?

Postby jorge » Thu Aug 05, 2021 3:44 pm

I also bought the untucked version before I bought the tucked version. It fits more easily but looks like it will not bear the stress of repeatedly tuning the macho up to a high pitch. That is what the tucked version is made for. So if you are satisfied with a moderately high pitch macho and don't plan to detune all the time, the untucked version would probably work fine. Otherwise, I would strongly recommend trying to find the tucked version. Even if it costs significantly more, it will probably last much longer and cost less in the long run.
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Re: Is changing the heads worth it?

Postby scavard » Thu Aug 05, 2021 5:25 pm

jorge wrote:Otherwise, I would strongly recommend trying to find the tucked version. Even if it costs significantly more, it will probably last much longer and cost less in the long run.

Oh thanks again for the advice! I was also wondering what were the practical differences between the two versions :)
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Re: Is changing the heads worth it?

Postby Siete Leguas » Fri Aug 06, 2021 8:37 am

Hi folks! I am also a big fan of the Matador bongo with upgraded heads. I own an old one with some nice natural skins on it and it sounds fantastic to me. I don't find the higher-end models of LP with stock heads that I've tried necessarily better in sound.

I have also played on another Matador bongo with Fiberskyn heads on macho and hembra, and I was positively surprised. The macho sounded very nice. Although I was at first quite skeptical, especially about the thin hembra head, I really ended up liking how it felt and sounded too. NOTE: The hembra had tape underneath to avoid nasty overtones!

jorge wrote:I also bought the untucked version before I bought the tucked version. It fits more easily but looks like it will not bear the stress of repeatedly tuning the macho up to a high pitch. That is what the tucked version is made for. So if you are satisfied with a moderately high pitch macho and don't plan to detune all the time, the untucked version would probably work fine. Otherwise, I would strongly recommend trying to find the tucked version. Even if it costs significantly more, it will probably last much longer and cost less in the long run.


Thanks! I had also wondered what the whole tucked/untucked thing was all about! So if you want to go for a really high pitched macho (salsa kind of sound), do you tune and detune the synthetic tucked head every time, just as you would do with a natural head?
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Re: Is changing the heads worth it?

Postby Siete Leguas » Fri Aug 06, 2021 8:42 am

BTW, the bongo or at least the heads played by Pakito Baeza on the video seem to be from the Aspire Series (one of the cheapest by LP) :)

EDIT: Maybe not, I can't really read the logo
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