Does one need to read music to be a competent bongo player ?

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Does one need to read music to be a competent bongo player ?

Postby Beatnik07 » Sat Jan 30, 2021 9:17 am

Out of my interest for bongos, I got several books on bongos and afrocuban music (including the "clave matrix").
Let me precise that I have no classical music theory education.

I found those books full of interesting, essential and captivating knowledge. However most of those books have lots of examples of patterns and beats in conventional musical notation with 5 lines staves. And while given enough time and concentration I can decipher those scores ..., I have lots of difficulties "hearing" what they mean, making musical sense out of them.

So I wonder, can one born in Europe become a good or competent bongos player (or other hand drums/percussions) without having a conventional music theory background ?

I believe that some major bongos players of latin/caribbean descent have developed playing excellence without such conventional music education, but I wonder for me, as a European person, of average European descent, not immersed in a natural afrocuban music culture, not born in it, not nurtured and raised in it, if I am bound to remain for ever a marginal (at best) player, if I do not spend the significant time and energy required to learn music theory/notation.
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Re: Does one need to read music to be a competent bongo play

Postby Chtimulato » Sat Jan 30, 2021 11:42 am

Hello.

In my eyes, the answer to your "title question" is "no". :)
Reading and writing music is a tool. A tool's function is to facilitate you a task which would be more difficult to do (and sometimes impossible) without it. In this case, it's not impossible without the tool.

I've met a lot of good musicians, European, African, Caribbean, etc. who can't read music at all. This does not prevent them from working on the instrument, nor from developing their feeling or technique. For instance, the late French singer Jacques Higelin couldn't read music. Like a lot of others. So in case of need, they have to have somebody else writing the music for them (for the orchestra, or for the authors'/composers' society, don't know the right word for it, sorry). Or they sing it to a recording device.

So these guys use their memory and feeling to play. "Feeling" is meant here in a positive sense, because there are also a lot of bad musicians with no technique who tell you "I play by feeling", and who should be avoided like the plague. :lol:

As I said, it's a useful tool for me, and that's all. If I watch an interesting video, I can write down what the musicians play. If I've suddenly got an idea (this can come suddenly like a flash, in the bus, at work, while eating, etc. :) ), I can write it down too before it goes away and I forget it. And once I have written it down, my brain has recorded it. The paper is just there "in case of need", if I want to remember or to correct what I wrote down.

Hope it helps.

Stay safe everybody.
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Re: Does one need to read music to be a competent bongo play

Postby jorge » Sat Jan 30, 2021 2:35 pm

The best bongoceros I know do not read music fluently. A few, like me, can figure out a written rhythm, write a simple idea, but not sight read. Many learned playing bata, cajon and other percussion and singing in religious ceremonies, playing rumba with other percussionists, and playing with small groups of family members since childhood. In a few places like New York City where there is an ongoing street rumba like the Central Park rumba, some learn mainly in the street, "la universidad de la calle". Many have had informal teachers but few have actually taken classes they paid for. One thing they all seem to have in common is hanging out and playing with great percussionists, generally Cuban or Puerto Rican, although there are some excellent bongoceros of other nationalities. Many guard their skills and secrets carefully. Going to Cuba and studying with teachers there can be extremely useful once you have pretty solid skills. I personally like a simple, sparse and clean style, strictly in clave and interacting with and accenting the singers and other musicians, rather than a lot of rolls, tricks and fireworks that you often see in solos online.
In Paris, you may be able to find an expatriate Cuban percussionist who could teach you, or even a Cuban folkloric group you could hang out with or join. This has been going on for centuries, my great grandfather José Manuel (Lico) Jiménez was a Black Cuban classical pianist who studied at the conservatory in Paris in the 1860s before settling in Germany. His daughter and some of his grandchildren and great grandchildren lived in Paris. I think Anga's daughters live in Paris, they have a group called Ibeyi, and there must be Cuban percussionists there currently. You both know better than I do, I have only been to Paris once, but you have to look around and talk to people.
Another way, if these opportunities are not available, is learning from recorded music, which we have discussed. The best percussionists I know from Cuba don't own a CD, record player or computer, don't stream music, can't get YouTube, and spend very little if any time listening to recorded music. These are mostly the older guys, the younger guys listening to recorded music tend to like listening to reggaeton...
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Re: Does one need to read music to be a competent bongo play

Postby Thomas Altmann » Sat Jan 30, 2021 4:02 pm

I'm pretty sure that the originators of the style that we play today, greats from El Chino and the Sotolongos to the conjunto and the mambo guys, were musically "illiterate". Those are the people that we study. Nobody would actually mind if you could play like them! They started as folklore aficionados and were talented enough to work their way up into the best bands of their time.

In a situation where everybody has plenty of time to check out new music and rehearse extensively, you will have enough opportunities to apply what you have learned and to experiment a little. I think it's important to think in music and play for the band, to know about different form structures and what to do in each section. If you think too "drumistically", even if you are a virtuoso, nobody can use you for a band. If you keep your ears open, you can learn to memorize and react quickly during a rehearsal. Even if everybody gets written music handed out, you can fake your way the first times through and eventually learn the arrangement while playing it. This is easier on congas and bongos than on timbales or drum set. The same is true for the clave, which you should try to identify, anyway.

If you are working on a professional level, like with broadcasting orchestras or in studio sessions, directors and contractors may expect you to read. There you are working with people who don't have much time to rehearse. Music charts help them to get the work done in a minimum of time, preferrably in an instant (if you can sightread really well). You don't want to be the only guy who has missed breaks, band unisons or - even worse - the ending of a given tune.

Personally, I'm not a good reader anyway, but I can read better for drum set or timbales, simply because I gathered more practice and experience doing it. On congas or bongos I am not that much conditioned to read music along. It's too physical for me to focus on a piece of paper at the same time, especially on stage. That's not a good thing or something to be proud of; it's not even an excuse, and I don't know how many gigs I have lost because of this handicap. It can be learned, however!

My situation as a percussionist is (or was) that I play instruments as diverse as drum set, congas, bongos, timbales, batá, and miscellanous percussion in non-Latin jazz projects. For me, it is a blessing to have all the exercises, patterns, rhythms and toques for the respective instruments written out; so whenever I need it, I can play the exercises for one instrument that I haven't touched for a while and are in top shape within one week (the latest). In this way, when the situation requires it, I'm no longer "only" a percussionist, but figure - for example - as a full-time bongocero, batá drummer or whatever. Written music is like instant music powder. It's easy to save and store. You must add some boiling water, and it starts to sound :wink: .

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Re: Does one need to read music to be a competent bongo play

Postby Siete Leguas » Sat Jan 30, 2021 8:11 pm

"Para tocar bien el son
hay que buscar por dentro,
a lo hondo, en el centro
de tu corazón."



Bota los papeles pa'l zafacón! ;)
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Re: Does one need to read music to be a competent bongo play

Postby Beatnik07 » Sun Jan 31, 2021 12:54 pm

Thanks for all these thoughtful replies !!!

I guess the post title was too vague, I should have titled it "Does one who is not born and nurtured in the afro-latin culture need to read music to be a competent bongo player ?" (But unfortunately it was too long).

I understand well that those musicians who are lucky enough to be born inside the afro-latin culture may not need as much (or at all) to read music or to know music theory, since the afro-latin culture fosters efficient oral communication and transmission of musical principles, maintains an overall strong and coherent cultural structure in which music remains central, and has a tradition of keeping its musical heritage alive and vibrant.

However these things in my experience are just lacking in western cultures/societies and western music education. And so I believe that for those like me who are born in Europe of European "stock", educated in western culture, the things are necessarily quite different.

As an illustration take the well known difficulties that Europeans usually have when learning Salsa dancing.

For another example, take the Clave pattern: for many of Latin or Caribbean descent the Clave is a "natural" concept, but for me (and I suspect many others), it's only after deciphering its musical notation on staves, that I understood correctly what the pattern is and means.

Another example: I recently got the excellent Percussion Tutor app for android. Thanks Chtimulato who recommended it !
Here is the description:
https://percussiontutor.com/app/
Look at the list of rhythmic patterns in the app ...
How does one learn to distinguish between, and learn to play these rhythmic structures of Pachanga, Songo, Timba, Guaguanco, etc...
except by reading and learning the notation on staves, which is provided in a document by the app maker ??

Again my point is: even though I don't think that reading music is essential to be a good player in any genre, I am afraid that for those who are not native to the afro latin culture and wish to engage into latin percussions, it is more or less essential.


As to the beautiful and lovely quote by Siete Leguas, I totally agree of course. :)
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Re: Does one need to read music to be a competent bongo play

Postby Chtimulato » Sun Jan 31, 2021 3:23 pm

My answer to your whole title is still "no", though it's a useful and helpful tool... :)

How does one learn to distinguish between, and learn to play these rhythmic structures of Pachanga, Songo, Timba, Guaguanco, etc...


Listening, and listening, attending gigs (I know it's not really the right time... :cry: ) and practicing... and, as suggested by Jorge, trying to spend time with Cuban, Puerto Rican or other Latino musicians, or even with "initiated" Frenchies. And ask them what you want to know/understand/feel.
Since you live in Paris, this should not be so difficult. You already know Orlando Poleo and Miguel Gomez.

It's like learning to drive a vehicle, it's something in the long term. You keep learning and practicing, till one day you've got the feeling you can really drive (when you stop wondering "What must I do now ?" and do the right thing/manoeuvre at the right time, by reflex, and not because you were told to do it). One day, you'll notice you've have enough knowledge to "navigate" among all these rhythms/genres.

This being said, I know dozens of French musicians (classical and jazz) who are very good readers, sometimes sight-readers, who are unable to feel the clave, even while reading a score, and get then out of the rhythm. I remember having spent almost a whole rehearsal explaining to 2 experimented saxophone players they were regularly getting out of tempo while trying to play (to slaughter :D ) a bossa nova they'd had been playing for decades though... :)

If I was a music teacher (teaching this kind of music), I'd try to initiate the students to listen and/or recognize the clave feel in this kind of music : it's present even if it's not played. This is unfortunately not systematically done in jazz music academies : if the teachers don't know about it, they can't teach it. It's only "optional", if there's a Latin music teacher in a jazz academy (I happen to know some).
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Re: Does one need to read music to be a competent bongo play

Postby Chtimulato » Sun Jan 31, 2021 3:38 pm

And BTW, a Cuban or a Puertorican person growing up in a "clave-friendly" environment is not necessarily a good drummer. Just like all black people are not necessarily good djembe players or jazz musicians.
The difference is that they have grown up and lived in this environment and it's part of their culture. What makes the difference is taking lessons with good masters and practicing, like piano or violin. I know a lot of black people who have no sense of rhythm, because they are not musicians. They can dance on their "home music", of course, because they were raised in it, but they can't play it because they are not musicians. Hence for instance the lots of charlatans you can see making noise with djembes at every street corner, in pedestrian areas or on the beach in summer. :D The best drummers I know all tell the same, no matter the origin : they wanted to learn drumming since they were little, and took every opportunity to learn it, sometimes sneaking outside despite their parent's forbid to attend a gig or a ceremony. :)
So we all have to catch the opportunity where we can find it. And then, practicing and practicing. And practicing again. :)
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Re: Does one need to read music to be a competent bongo play

Postby Juaort » Sun Jan 31, 2021 8:16 pm

Love this discussion! I agree with your points of view, all great. Years ago I took learning to read musings with a Friend of mine who was a Jazz /Latin Jazz Drummer names Santiago “Santi” from Brooklyn. He also played the vibraphone. He always told me that if you don’t have a good feel, ear, technic and knowledge of the clave no matter how much you know how to read music you’ll always be lacking.

It’s just like a Graphic artist who knows how to use photoshop but can’t draw to save his life. One of my Art professors told me this during an Art Gallery presentation he did while his work was being displayed (I Mayored in Art Design). I could draw my behind off, but was never really great at Photoshop lol. But that feel and skill got me work. Not sure if that makes any sense, but I’ve seen it in both mediums with Music and Art.

I got as good as reading the basics with the martillo and Tumbao, the breaks I figured out from practicing with the timbalero and Bongoceros. Keeping time/clave did the rest. I knew many guys who were useless unless you put a piece of music in front of them. I hung out in those Rumbas at Central Park many times, I would say that most could not read a sheet of music but knew how to play (technically sound) and improvise (Feel, ear and clave) better than most.

I think it’s great if you can read a sheet of music, it’ll definitely get you more gigs. But being for me being well rounded with the technical, feel for the style you playing and having a good ear for the clave/timing is more important.
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Re: Does one need to read music to be a competent bongo play

Postby jorge » Sun Jan 31, 2021 11:29 pm

Yeah, interesting discussion.
Listen to the original 1960 recording of No Hace Falta Papel by Rey Caney (Reinaldo Hierrezuelo) the lyricist of the song who in Cuba had sung with Los Compadres, replacing Compay Segundo when he left. Try to play clave and sing the coro, which starts on the 3 side of the clave and gives the song a lot of its swing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXZsiJLTSq0

Now listen to Cheo Feliciano's version from 16 years later in 1976, reissued in 1990 as the Cesta all stars version. They completely flipped the coro to start on the 2 side of clave and changed "tocar" montuno to "bailar" montuno, not sure why. Much as I like this version with Cheo singing and Frankie Malabe on congas, it has a completely different swing from the original version, due in part to the change in clave.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0c_0KR6NkY

Henry Fiol's 1983 version followed Cheo's by 7 years but slows it down keeping the coro on the 2 side of the clave. This probably became the most popular version in NYC, probably because of the "botan los papeles - pa'l zafacón" hook they added to the coro.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsroiMFg234

Regardless, the explicit message of all 3 versions was clear that to play son montuno, playing with feeling (the right feeling) is much more important than being able to read music, with suggestions that trying to play from charts is even harmful (botan los papeles, queman los papeles, ..., pa'l zafacón, etc). They make their point with their swing, and I bet none of you even noticed the corista in Rey Caney's version who came in alone too early with the coro at 2:16. The song still rocks in spite of the mistake and the New York Philharmonic, which would never have made that mistake, would not have made the song swing like that. The song became sort of an anthem to common sense and folk wisdom, and against colonialism.

So I am going to keep agreeing with the "no" vote on the OP's title question.
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Re: Does one need to read music to be a competent bongo play

Postby Thomas Altmann » Mon Feb 01, 2021 1:52 am

Guys,

I'm absolutely on everybody's side in rating feeling (including clave feeling) higher than the ability to read. I expressed that in my first post in this thread.

However, I'm not at ease with the romantic (or kitschy) cliché of the poor and honest folklore musician who plays from nothing but his/her heart, versus the educated but cold, non-swinging pro, who cannot play a single note without written music.

It's not about symphonic orchestras and their timpanists and percussionists. There are musicians, including percussionists, who can swing their asses off and who read their parts flawlessly at the same time. They studied at conservatories in Cuba or in the U.S., and they are the ones who get hired for the kind of gigs that I mentioned. Sorry, but that has become the standard, at least as soon as you are working with jazz musicians.

As I said, I don't regard myself a good reader; but I could list some great gigs that I wouldn't have gotten without my basic reading skills. I can also name at least two gigs that I did not get, at least partly due to my imperfect reading. I can then recall situations where I was hired in spite of this deficiency, only because I had something to offer that nobody else had; so they coped with my flaws. And I remember that I sometimes wrote my own charts for congas and for timbales, in order to shorten rehearsal time and to guarantee a firm understanding of the arrangements. The art is in reading and preserving the indispensable energy and swing while you are doing it.

Percussion charts don't look like the notation in method books. It's basically the "road map" with lines and pages of empty bars or slash marks, repetition signs, segno and coda, perhaps with a couple of breaks, cierres and ensemble kicks written in. It indicates the right tempo and determines the (hopefully correct) rhythm and sometimes the (hopefully correct) clave direction. It tells you how to start and where and how to end, and it gives you an overview about the structure and the respective dynamics. That's all. The chart is there to help you; again, as Chtimulato said, as a helpful tool.

I suggest that we open up the frontiers and reduce our phobia a bit. It's O.K. if you cannot read very well; but if you plan to become more or less professional, you ought to know that there will be a segment of work that you won't even be called for. More often than not it's the segment that is paid better.

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Re: Does one need to read music to be a competent bongo play

Postby Siete Leguas » Mon Feb 01, 2021 2:19 pm

Nice thread going on here, full of interesting experiences, opinions and analogies!

As to Beatnik's original question (and further elaboration), I can relate to the overwhelming feeling of being lost in a labyrinth of new information and trying to make sense out of it.

If your goal is to become a top-level professional musician, I think you should definitely learn how to read music, and probably develop many other skills at a high level, too (that might include non-musical subjects such as marketing/networking/social media management or, as Thomas pointed out, nowadays even video production skills). However, that was never my case. My goal has always been to have fun playing music in different situations, and do it as well as I possibly can, that is, getting better along the way. Obviously, making some money and/or getting recognition from the listeners is also very satisfying, but most of the time that was secondary to me.

As stated previously here, reading music can be one of many tools to help you progress, but I'm positive you can learn in endless other ways too, if you pay attention. Small things like a casual comment made by an experienced musician, identifying a musical phrase or a pattern in a song, something you hear on the radio, etc., can open important doors and bring you further (of course, learning a new pattern from a book can be super meaningful, too!).

IMHO, being curious and eager to understand the cultural background and context of music is a very valuable trait as well. Accordingly, in order to make sense of Latin American music, learning Spanish/Portuguese (at least a little bit) can be particularly helpful. For example, understanding the general mood of the lyrics of a song can help you differentiate a humorous Guaracha from a melancholic Guajira, and play accordingly - for instance, emphasizing a punchline in the lyrics with your bongó. In this respect, you might find yourself learning some words in Quechua if you are playing Huaynos from the Andes, or expressions in African languages if you get into Cuban folkloric music - the more you understand, the better!

However, I would advice to take it easy, and enjoy every progress you make, little by little. From my own experience, I would say that if you stick to it, progress will come some way or another, sometimes without you noticing it. I can totally relate to Chtimulato's driving analogy.

As to my reference to "No hace falta papel", it was meant a little bit tongue-in-cheek. I just thought the message of the song was a direct answer to Beatniks's original question. But the lyrics of the song are themselves tongue-in-cheek (nobody was playing Son Montuno in the year 1 A.D., obviously!), so you should take it with a grain of salt. It's a beautiful song anyway. BTW, I like the coro starting on the 2 side better than as in Rey Caney's original version, but I guess that's a matter of taste.

Just my 2 cents!

Salud!
Last edited by Siete Leguas on Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Does one need to read music to be a competent bongo play

Postby Thomas Altmann » Mon Feb 01, 2021 5:17 pm

... and probably develop many other skills at a high level, too:

- tax consultant, car mechanic ...
BTW, I like the coro starting on the 2 side better than as in Rey Caney's original version, but I guess that's a matter of taste.

I think it's definitely better, and I can explain it: In the word "montuno", the last two syllables are syncopated on 4+ and 1+, introducing the 3-part of the clave, while the last syllable of "papel" is falling right on the downbeat, the 1 of the succeeding measure, thus suggesting the 2-part. If there are no other /stronger rhythmic accents in the phrase that may point in the opposite direction, then my clave sense wants to hear it as in the salsa versions. Most piano montunos work by the same rule, which is rooted in a strong precedent: the ritmo Conga (bell in Havana, bombo in Santiago).

Cheers,
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Re: Does one need to read music to be a competent bongo play

Postby jorge » Tue Feb 02, 2021 12:11 am

Remember Rey Caney's version is from 1960, before "salsa", and actually was part of the roots of the Cuban music played in NYC that developed into "salsa". Cheo's version, with some of the best Puerto Rican musicians in NYC, is from 1976, 16 long years later, after the development of "salsa", and Henry Fiol's version was 7 years after that. I am guessing that you probably heard either Cheo's or Henry's version first, and were used to the Nuyorican clave feel of that song and of "salsa" in general, before hearing Rey Caney's original version. A lot has to do with how you first hear a song and "bond" with it, then different versions you hear later just don't sound right.
Rey Caney was born in Santiago de Cuba. In addition to being one of Los Compadres and one of the developers of the Cuban son, he was a founder, singer and tresero of Vieja Trova Santiaguera, sonero mayor, and lived and sang a generation before either Cheo or Henry. So it is hard to compare, it is like saying you like Oscar d'Leon's version of Castellano Que Bueno Baila Usted better than Beny More's version. Both great artists but apples and oranges. It is not a coincidence that Beny More did not read or write music and relied on his arrangers like Generoso Jimenez to write down his musical creations and arrangements. Oscar D'Leon singing "Generoso" in his soneo is different than Beny More singing "Generoso" and then Generoso Jimenez taking his trombone solo.
It is a good thing to learn songs, keep them alive, pass them down to the younger generations. Reading music is helpful for that too. And everyone covers songs, like Rey Caney and Vieja Trova Santiaguera covered "El Paralitico" many years after Trio Matamoros first recorded it. But often there is something special about the original version.
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Re: Does one need to read music to be a competent bongo play

Postby Thomas Altmann » Tue Feb 02, 2021 2:30 pm

Hi Jorge,

If Beatnik permits, I follow you straying from the original topic for a single reply. If this is of general interest, we should consider opening a separate thread.

I am guessing that you probably heard either Cheo's or Henry's version first, and were used to the Nuyorican clave feel of that song and of "salsa" in general, before hearing Rey Caney's original version. A lot has to do with how you first hear a song and "bond" with it, then different versions you hear later just don't sound right.


I did not know the song at all before, neither the NY version nor the Cuban original.

I totally respect anybody's taste and personal preferences as a listener. As a hobby musicologist, I also respect the monuments of tradition that are the foundation for the evolution of the diverse art forms. It would be silly to disregard their historical origins that are often pioneer works.

As an active musician, I'm kind of sitting on one table with Rey Caney, Cheo, and an imaginary arranger of a band that I'm involved in, and from this position I would plead for Cheo's suggestion, so to say. It is true that I had come to Cuban music via NYC Salsa; but I've had enough time to study its origins, even if I left out "No hace falta papel". (I have given up on knowing everything, although I tried.) The clave mechanism that I am referring to hasn't been invented in New York. It emerged first as a vague feeling from the Cuban folklore tradition, its playing and listening experience. It is probably rooted in Afro-Cuban styles much older than Ritmo Conga.

Some Salsa arrangers have become masters of Cuban music. They have learned how to deal with the clave. I find that in many cases they developed this art further than arrangers in Cuba, who were busy creating new dances and musical styles after the revolution. Before the revolution, Son Montuno and the conjunto style had been the most popular genres in Cuba (aside from the charangas' Cha Cha Chá). But as I demonstrated in a previous thread, the clave concept, although risen to central importance in Cuban Son Montuno, was not always pursued to perfection in the conjuntos. Beside the examples that I already mentioned, I may list Guillermo Rodríguez Fiffe's well-known guaracha "La negra Tomasa" alias "Quiquiribu Mandinga" alias "Bilongo". Admittedly, I got to know Eddie Palmieri's version first, not knowing the arrangement was probably influenced by the Tito Rodríguez version (where Eddie had once worked as a pianist). The song was composed in 1937. Now listen to the Conjunto Casino recording from the 1940's:
https://youtu.be/M0sJQaZ8wfU.
The clave jumps after the cierre. The Conjunto Casino was one of the most successful Cuban conjuntos at that time, and it would be ridiculous to declare that they played it the "wrong" way. It is what it is, and they played what they played. You either like it or not. Back then, it was probably acceptable to turn around the clave over a long cierre. But in 1996, Rubén González did the same thing:
https://youtu.be/O_e7GPj_wlU.
Rubén was a great pianist, I love his voicing and his solo style. He was a legend, representing a part of Cuban popular music history. How could anyone criticize him for what he played? But, going back in time, listen to the clever arrangement of Cuban pianist René Hernández for the Tito Rodríguez orchestra from the late 1960's:
https://youtu.be/f5Wwp89FiNM.
This was written and recorded in the U.S.A., but it wasn't even Salsa. Why did René Hernández, pianist and arranger for Machito, choose to re-shape the interlude, when the Conjunto Casino had already done the perfect job? Has anyone ever accused him of cultural blasphemy?
Here is Eddie Palmieri, recorded in 1969:
https://youtu.be/ZlUYuwUiQTY.

Greetings,
Thomas

P.S.: To justify this post a bit, here is the timbales chart for the Palmieri version of "Bilongo":

BILONGO Percussion Chart (1).jpg
BILONGO, page 1

BILONGO Percussion Chart (2).jpg
BILONGO, page 2
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