How does one distinguish 2-3 vs 3-2 Clave ?

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How does one distinguish 2-3 vs 3-2 Clave ?

Postby Beatnik07 » Mon Jun 15, 2020 9:22 am

If I hear the very beginning of a music piece especially with a cowbell or clave, then it might be possible for me to find out whether it's a 2-3 or a 3-2 pattern.

But if I listen to an ongoing song/track, etc.. then, 2-3 and 3-2 cannot be differentiated solely on the cowbell or clave.
I suspect the answer lies with the other instruments or the song structure, but to me that's still very difficult to hear.

So in practice (meaning for a beginner ...), how does one distinguishes the 2-3 vs 3-2 Clave basis, for an ongoing piece of music ?
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Re: How does one distinguish 2-3 vs 3-2 Clave ?

Postby jorge » Mon Jun 15, 2020 5:01 pm

That is a high art, part of the mystery and magic of AfroCuban music and its derivatives. You have to listen to everything, the percussion, vocals, bass, tres and other rhythmic instruments, and FEEL where the clave goes. But which way you feel it can be different depending on what music you listen to, grew up with, or play. Often, there is a clave playing in the background if you listen for it, or in salsa the bells or timbale cascara give you the clave timing. Sometimes you can feel it better when you are dancing, but that assumes you know how to dance with clave. Piano can be tricky as a cue due to modern developments of the montuno. Listening to a recording or singing on your own, try playing it both ways and see which sounds "right", gives the music more swing, and fits better with the melody and percussion. This is a skill that develops over many years of playing with excellent Cuban musicians, and many musicians of other nationalities have a lot of trouble with this especially if there are no Cuban master musicians around. Even if there are, there are no guarantees. Occasionally even among top Cuban musicians there is a "discussion" of which way the clave goes. This is pretty rare but I have seen it. The world's understanding of the clave increased in the early 1980s when the diaspora of Cuban musicians who left Cuba via Mariel taught (and fought) people around the world. Also, in salsa and even sometimes rumba, either way may be acceptable, although to different people. Not worth spilling blood over, at least for most people. Salsa especially from the 70s, pre-Mariel often has the clave in a place that may sound natural to old timers from NYC or other salsa centers, but which sounds cruzao to those used to playing, singing or dancing modern Cuban rumba. An example is Quimbara by Celia Cruz and Johnny Pacheco. Pero cuidado, before you say anything think 3 times and make sure you are right. And be humble. This is a very central and important question.
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Re: How does one distinguish 2-3 vs 3-2 Clave ?

Postby Beatnik07 » Tue Jun 16, 2020 7:10 am

Jorge, thanks a lot for this thoughtful reply !
It comforts me a bit to learn that my difficulties are not solely mine (and not over yet).

I checked the title you mentioned "Quimbara" with Celia Cruz and Johnny Pacheco, which I didn't know. There is an amazing video about a live performance in Africa, you probably know it, but I'll share it:



One of my long time favorites is this Johnny Pacheco beautiful song:

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Re: How does one distinguish 2-3 vs 3-2 Clave ?

Postby Siete Leguas » Tue Jun 16, 2020 8:57 am

Beatnik07 wrote:But if I listen to an ongoing song/track, etc.. then, 2-3 and 3-2 cannot be differentiated solely on the cowbell or clave.


Hi Beatnik,

if I understand your question right, you mean that you can identify (or might be able to do it) which side of the clave you are in at any given point (i.e. which one is "right"), but you are not sure which one (2- side or 3-side) came first.

That is sometimes obvious if you listen to the vocals or other instruments like piano, bass, etc., but sometimes it can be tricky and one might get the impression that the clave "fluctuates" throughout the piece. You can then pay special attention to the changes; for example when the bongosero goes to the cowbell, you might have a good chance to hear which side he plays first.

That said, knowing "which side came first" is not as important as playing it right, in my humble opinion. What really matters is that all musicians play aligned with the same clave, even though, as Jorge said, that can also be matter of fervent discussion. Hopefully the blood-spilling is kept down to the strictly necessary minimum!
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Re: How does one distinguish 2-3 vs 3-2 Clave ?

Postby Juaort » Thu Jun 18, 2020 12:27 am

Beatnik07, that Johnny and Celia concert took place during the Rumble In The Jungle Ali fight in Africa. There was a music festival I believe the weekend the fight took place. FANIA Allstars performed and recorded that concert. I gave both the Blue Ray and LP.
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Re: How does one distinguish 2-3 vs 3-2 Clave ?

Postby Siete Leguas » Mon Jun 22, 2020 1:51 pm

I recently read two very interesting articles about clave (in German) by forum member Thomas Altmann that he has published on his website (http://www.jazzpercussion.de/artikel.htm).

There he points out (I am quoting Thomas freely here) that the African concept of clave is that of an infinite Time-Line pattern that never began and never ends, to which the music adapts itself. So it could be argued that there is no absolute 3-2 or 2-3 clave, but just "one" clave, which is infinite but can be perceived as having one specific direction in a certain piece of music, or some parts of it. @Thomas: Please correct me if I didn't get that right!

I think an example could be this song (bolero-son?) by Compay Segundo. To me it starts clearly with a 3-2 clave during the verse, but as it transitions to the montuno part around 3:00, it becomes 2-3, while the Time-Line stays continuous and there are no disruptions in the clave.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZ3iqhATn7c

@Beatnik07: Just curious: How do you embed videos in your posts like that?
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Re: How does one distinguish 2-3 vs 3-2 Clave ?

Postby Thomas Altmann » Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:50 pm

Hi Siete Leguas,

you are citing me correctly. Let me add, however, that this perspective is a simplification that may prove to be helpful to people of my cultural background to understand the nature of clave better. At the core of this simplification is perhaps the attempt to relate to something like an "African" concept - because Africa is a huge continent with various peoples and ethnicities. Even when I narrow my subject down to Central- and West-African music, this incorporates so many different cultures that it's hard to state something valid. CK Ladzekpo from Ghana apparently opposes to my point of view, as far as Ewe music is concerned: https://youtu.be/eIZDYjNQGYE (at about 1:20 to 2:20). However, I'm not sure whether he argued on the same plane of perception of the clave as I do, because clave has more than one layer of meaning. Also, CK himself is admittedly speaking from an Ewe background, which is not necessarily transferrable to, let's say, the Yoruba in Nigeria or the Lunda in Congo.

I do not intend to re-start the old clave discussion again. We have filled weeks and months - and several pages on this forum - exchanging experiences, perspectives and opinions, with David Peñalosa usually being the protagonist. (I don't know whether he is still reading CongaPlace posts, or whether he is completely absorbed by Facebook, which I have rejected from the beginning.) A lot can be learned from him and our discussions in the respective threads here.

One personal matter, finally: When I am talking about "the African concept" or "the African perspective" etc, I consciously do so as a cultural outsider trying to understand the discrepancies between my European background and the African-derived and -influenced music that I dare play for almost 50 years now. I have never tried to be African, Cuban, Caribbean, or whatever; I'm obviously as white and European as you can possibly imagine. But I love this music, and I'm absolutely sure that one has to understand more than just the note values or the rhythmic scores in order to play it. I apologize if I occasionally come across like someone who is talking about things he isn't entitled to. However, my long and serious research has brought about some ideas (like the one you quoted) that, with the time, have been verified over and over, and that have proven useful for myself, for students and for other people to play the corresponding music better, and I am sure that these ideas should at least be considered as separately valid aspects of the matter.
The same is true, by the way, of my suggestion to view the drum as a the subject that needs the drummer's help to speak. Of course, it is more common to regard the drum as an instrument with which the drummer expresses himself, and that is undeniably correct and a legitimate perspective. Anyway, I just recently read an African Ifá verse that (once more) proved to me that the subject-object reversion of man and his tool perfectly accords to an African (here: Yoruba) way of looking at things - q.e.d.

Greetings
Thomas
Last edited by Thomas Altmann on Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How does one distinguish 2-3 vs 3-2 Clave ?

Postby Siete Leguas » Mon Jun 22, 2020 8:53 pm

Thanks for the clarifications, Thomas.

My quote of your articles was itself oversimplified. I understand where you are coming from and I am aware of the difficulty of making broad claims, especially on these subjects, which can be approached from many different perspectives and are sometimes matter of interpretation. Anyway, Carl Jung once wrote that "a truth is only true if its opposite is also true", or something similar. :)

As for myself, a white European as well, specifically in my quest to enjoy/understand Afro-Cuban music, I found some of the ideas in your articles (like the infinite cyclic clave and others) very insightful. In some cases I saw in them a corroboration of my own perceptions.

I'll try to get my hands on "The Clave Matrix" by David Peñalosa if I ever have the chance.

Take care!
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Re: How does one distinguish 2-3 vs 3-2 Clave ?

Postby Chtimulato » Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:01 am

I'll try to get my hands on "The Clave Matrix" by David Peñalosa if I ever have the chance.


You can find it here :
https://www.amazon.com/Clave-Matrix-Afro-Cuban-Principles-African/dp/1478299479

I personally don't like to buy from Amazon, because it "kills" many small jobs and shops, and Amazon workers are the modern slaves, but items are sometimes only available there, and it seems to be the case here.

Interesting discussion BTW, though I did not take the time to jump in.
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Re: How does one distinguish 2-3 vs 3-2 Clave ?

Postby Siete Leguas » Wed Jun 24, 2020 12:19 am

Yes, I also have a few moral issues buying from Amazon. Also in this case for me, shipping from the US is expensive (customs/taxes, etc.) and takes annoyingly long.

I am hoping to be able to borrow it from the local Music School here some time. But if that doesn't work, I might order it there and make Mr. Bezos a bit richer (and Mr. Peñalosa). Thanks for the info!
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Re: How does one distinguish 2-3 vs 3-2 Clave ?

Postby Beatnik07 » Thu Jun 25, 2020 8:34 am

Thanks a lot for all these erudite replies ! So very much to learn.

I found on the web a scholarly thesis on the Clave (quite above my current level, but I'll see what I can figure out :) ).
It's called: "The Syntax of ‘Clave’ – Perception and Analysis of Meter in Cuban and African Music".

I could not upload the pdf here, but downloading the thesis is easy on the site below. It's over 160 pages. It might be a good temporary fix for those who don't have or are awaiting "The Clave Matrix".

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... ican_Music
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Re: How does one distinguish 2-3 vs 3-2 Clave ?

Postby Thomas Altmann » Thu Jun 25, 2020 9:53 am

Thank you Beatnik!

I wonder why I never stumbled over this one - from 2002! I also downloaded the Vurkac thesis on the same page. I will examine them later. I'm glad that the research on this subject seems to progress. However, none of these works is a substitute for "Clave Matrix" - which doesn't mean that any of them is inferior. The approach is just different.

Thanks again,
Thomas
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Re: How does one distinguish 2-3 vs 3-2 Clave ?

Postby Beatnik07 » Sat Jun 27, 2020 7:25 am

Thomas Altmann wrote:Thank you Beatnik!

You are welcome !
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Re: How does one distinguish 2-3 vs 3-2 Clave ?

Postby Siete Leguas » Thu Jul 09, 2020 2:00 pm

@Thomas: I just read the following quotes in the book "Rumba Quinto" (Peñalosa, 2010, p. 189):

"Circles have an important philosophical significance in the perception of the African reality of time... Much of African music is circular. This circular concept of time ultimately defines a structural set. The set represents a structural module from which the entire performance is derived" (Anku pp. 1, 9).

"... [The] attitude of considering the beginning of a measure to be also the end embodies the sub-Saharan cosmological concept similar to reincarnation" (Ladzekpo 1995: webpage).

So it seems that C.K. Ladzekpo does (or did) support what you stated in your article. I know you didn't want to discuss the old clave topic again, but I thought it might be worth sharing.
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Re: How does one distinguish 2-3 vs 3-2 Clave ?

Postby Thomas Altmann » Thu Jul 09, 2020 6:40 pm

Thank you Siete Leguas! That's confirming my ideas.

My own research has clearly been focused on Yoruba /Lukumí (not Ewe) culture. In one of the virtually hundreds of books and articles that I have read, it said that, in Yoruba culture, the circular time concept competes with the linear concept. Not sure whether the linear time concept (the "beam") came to them with the Europeans. Anyway, TIME is a big, almost sacred topic in my life. It's like I'm constantly in pursuit of this animal (unicorn). I can't say anything heavy yet, and maybe I wouldn't if I could.

Greetings,
Thomas
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