What is the importance of Clave rhythm in bongos playing ?

[Beatnik07]

Clave is mentioned frequently as an afro latin rhythmic structure for bongos playing.
Looking up Clave, the structure was explained as bar 1: 1-4-7 for Clave Son, 1-4-8 for Clave Rumba, and with bar 2: 3-5 for both styles (1/8th grid).

But I can't really connect it to say a pattern like martillo. In other words where does the notion of Clave arise when playing bongos ? In tutorial videos I hear people teaching all kinds of patterns, but those seem straight 4-4 (maybe to make the teaching easier). But as I am practicing the martillo, I can't imagine how to "incorporate" the Clave rhythm in my playing. (Maybe being a total beginner has something to do with it ).

Anyway, I found this interesting on Clave:
https://www.ethanhein.com/wp/2013/why-i ... o-awesome/

[Thomas Altmann]

Hi Beatnik,

first of all, don't rely only on YT-tutorials. Find a good teacher. Should be easy in Paris.

Secondly, the rhythm of clave is one thing, the movement that serves as a rhythmic key another.

Thirdly, the three-stroke part of the clave is not always the first measure (and the 2-part not always the second). If you are not familiar with clave directions 3-2 and 2-3, then you are really just at a beginning of a long and fascinating journey. If you understand a bit of German, I could recommend my articles on the clave that I published on my website. Another great resource which goes beyond the practical aspects is David Peñalosa's book "The Clave Matrix".

Besides the fact that you should always sense the clave of the (Latin) tune while playing, clave becomes important as soon as you develop your martillo into repique, which will be ad lib for the biggest part. Probably the best demonstration of some standard repique patterns is the YT-clip of Johnny "Dandy" Rodríguez with Jimmy Delgado on Martin Cohen's LP-channel. The rhythmic relationship of the repique accents and rhythmic elements with the clave movement as demonstrated by Dandy represents the mainstream system in Mambo and Salsa today. Armando Peraza and José Mangual were probably at the roots the of this style in the US. (Papa Kila and Yeyito often played the other way around.)

You can look forward to a joyful journey with some groundbreaking discoveries that will open up your rhythmic understanding of Latin music.

Thomas

P.S.: Make sure you master the martillo not only rhythmically, but also technically and soundwise - at any tempo - before starting to "repicar".

[Chtimulato]

Hello.
As Thomas said, you should find a good teacher. In France, Laurent Lamy gives online lessons. He's findable on Facebook and has also got a Youtube channel. But you should be able to find someone in Paris.
This being said, there are a lot of charlatans on Youtube, but the following guys are serious musicians and good teachers : Dandy of course, but also Joaquin Arteaga from Tromboranga, Pablo "el Indio" Rosario, Edgardo Cambón ("Dance Papi"), Michael de Miranda, Frank Oropesa "el Matador" from the Septeto Nacional, and certainly some others whom I'm forgetting by now. I'll give you some links when I get back on my computer. It's tedious to do it on my phone.
Inbetween, you can listen to some "classic" latin tunes and try to play along, you'll understand how every instrument (not only bongó) interacts with the clave.

Have fun. Et Joyeux Noël to everyone.

[Beatnik07]

Thanks to all ! Yep, probably finding a good teacher would be quite useful, but the logistic (and financial) sides of it make it a bit complicated.

On YouTube I have found the videos of Dance Papi, Roberto Serrano, Kalani Das (World Drum Club), and Eric Perez (A percussion Life) distinctly good and helpful (even though some are in spanish which I don't speak ).

I found this one quite inspiring:


In this one Miguel Bandera links the Clave rhythmic structure to his bongos playing:


Merry Christmas !!!

[Juaort]

Eric Perez is who I watch. He’s very good with teaching clave as it pertains to playing as well as counting. He’s very good and breaks things down.

[Chtimulato]

Attention, gentlemen. Though I confirm Eric Pérez is very good, I saw a video of him ("How to do a 'Dandy' martillo") in which he is 'crusado' (playing in the wrong clave direction), which totally puzzled me, till I noticed it and understood I already knew the variation, but played correctly, i.e. in the correct direction...

[Juaort]

Good catch! Lol.

[Beatnik07]

Attention, gentlemen. Though I confirm Eric Pérez is very good, I saw a video of him ("How to do a 'Dandy' martillo") in which he is 'crusado' (playing in the wrong clave direction), which totally puzzled me, till I noticed it and understood I already knew the variation, but played correctly, i.e. in the correct direction...

You don't say ! After learning the basic martillo, I just spent over a week learning and practicing Dandy's martillo on this video below !!!
Never suspected anything wrong with the pattern (actually I thought it sounded pretty good). And also I have memorized it....

[Chtimulato]

Well, you'll have to learn it the other way...
I'll post some material this week-end (no time today, sorry)

[Beatnik07]

Well, you'll have to learn it the other way...
I'll post some material this wee-end (no time today, sorry)

Thanks, that would be very helpful.

For what it's worth, I checked the video comments (there are 108, over a period of almost a year) and as far as the one in english, I found only one detecting a problem with the pattern being played.
This one comment said: " What you are doing is martillo, with repique. The phrase you are playing is not a martillo. It has martillo, and it is embellished with repique."
On the other hand, maybe that's why Eric Perez calls it "Dandy's martillo".

But as I said, as a beginner, I am most eager to learn, and would be grateful for any help !

[Chtimulato]

I'm back again.

Here's the basis : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8OIZPvP_Fs, but I guess you already know this.

Here are some variations by the same guy (Michael de Miranda) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D91yyUf5Xgs,
and some others here : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYcEv3TeEq8

The clave direction is 2/3.

I'll send you some other stuff tomorrow.
Can you read music ? I sent you a pm BTW.

About Eric Pérez' video, the comment you quote is right : it's not "the" 'Dandy' martillo, it's just one of the numerous variations that can be played on the martillo, by Dandy and some others. And Dandy has got tons of variations.
As I said, Eric Pérez is "cruzado" when he plays it. The "one" is just before the double hembra strokes. And then it goes on, in a 2/3 clave. I needed time to understand he was "cruzado", and to understand I already knew this variation, but played correctly...

I'll post some other links later on.

Have fun.

[Thomas Altmann]

Guys,

I accepted a bongo pupil recently who taught himself with YouTube, mentioning the same sources that you brought up. He was completely misled. Not necessarily because the youtubers were doing wrong, but because there was no one to correct him or giving him an idea of what is primarily important in music. His sound was below anything acceptable, for example.

I never watched the instructional videos of Michael Miranda or Eric Perez, no matter how good they are. I watched Dandy, Manny Oquendo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ms-14M4sZ3U), Frank Oropesa (for Septeto style), and anything by Orestes Vilato and Jimmy Delgado. Once there have been short clips of Ray Romero demonstrating the martillo the way he learned it from Chano Pozo, but they seem to be gone by now. That was a treasure, and Ray Romero was very good, as can be verified on one video with Giovanni. I saw him live with the Machito orchestra in 1982. When I go through YouTube, I do so for inspiration, connecting with the history, the tradition. It adds to, and complements what I have already learned so far. One day, when you finally consult an experienced player for classes, you might find yourself in the need to start all over again from zero.

Of course there are other great bongoceros that have not been mentioned. Roberto García was good. He played with everybody from Bebo Valdés to Emiliano Salvador to Afro-Cuban All Stars. Then there are the Puerto Ricans, like Roberto Roena and others. These are the people that I would check out - before Antoni Carrillo.

Santiago /Oriental style is different. I never studied that. Changüí tampoco.

As I said, I don't know Eric Perez. If he or somebody else is playing "wrong" in clave, he might be inadvertantly doing so, or he follows the style of Papa Kila (with Arsenio Rodríguez). It would be silly to say Papa Kila or Yeyito played wrong .

I think I have said everything I could say. Wishing you success,

Thomas

[Juaort]

Thanks for the input Thomas. It was well received.

[Chtimulato]

Of course, Thomas, we all agree : videos, even the good ones, will never be as good as a real teacher in real life. Or at least one giving online lessons, as already stated above.
This being said, with all due respect, I'm not sure Eric Pérez is following Papa Kila's or Yeyito's path. Just my opinion.

[Beatnik07]

I accepted a bongo pupil recently who taught himself with YouTube, mentioning the same sources that you brought up. He was completely misled ... because there was no one to correct him or giving him an idea of what is primarily important in music. His sound was below anything acceptable, for example.

Thanks, for your reply.
But in order to help me and probably many others, I have a few questions:
-- Could you expand more in detail on the major shortcomings of a "YouTube-trained" bongos student ?
-- For example, what were precisely the causes of your student "below anything acceptable" sound ?
-- How would you exactly describe the most likely mistakes done from studying/learning bongos on Youtube ?
-- What do you wish the videos would stress as being "what is primarily important in music" ?
-- What would be your recommendations for beginning people who right now may not have any other option than studying YouTube videos online to learn/study bongos ?

Again, thanks !