What is the importance of Clave rhythm in bongos playing ?

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Re: What is the importance of Clave rhythm in bongos playing

Postby Thomas Altmann » Sun Dec 29, 2019 8:46 pm

Dear Beatnik,

I do/did not really have a massive amount of bongo students to report about; most people come to me for congas and batá, and they are inreasingly from an advanced segment. Anyway:

Could you expand more in detail on the major shortcomings of a "YouTube-trained" bongos student ?

The sound seems to be hard to pick up from the clips. Especially the dynamics tend to be leveled down to a linear volume. Also, the physicality, like lifting and striking motions, posture or breathing, are to be carefully observed by student and teacher in a lesson dialogue. Playing hand drums with bad technique can become dangerous, because you can hurt your hands, wrists or fingers, or contract a tendonitis. There are numerous things that can go wrong without this person-to-person communication, too numerous in fact to list up, or even think about.
For example, what were precisely the causes of your student "below anything acceptable" sound ?

Hand drum technique requires precise articulation of sound diversity. The thumb stroke has its own sound quality for instance, as has any other stroke on each of the drums. It also has the double function of muting the macho head, or rather shortening the resonating surface in order to achieve what I call the "click sound" on the bongo. Hand positioning and drum head zones are important. How long do the fingers rest on the drum? How do I time my motions, and how and when do I travel from the macho to the hembra and vice versa? If you have no idea how the bongo has to sound live, the danger is that you play one inarticulate sequence of strokes at an undistinguishable sound range in uniform dynamics.
How would you exactly describe the most likely mistakes done from studying/learning bongos on Youtube ?

See above and below. However, I do not have hundreds of students to supply representative statistics.
What do you wish the videos would stress as being "what is primarily important in music" ?

Look, music is an art. It is almost like a secret science. The nature of this art is a subject of constant searching, for me as for anyone else. Chances are that people with more experience are ahead of beginners, so they can give them the right advice at the right moment, or even pose the right questions to guide the student on his way. A good teacher should realize the specific talents as well as the shortcomings of each individual student and respond to them accordingly, as opposed to deliver a one-for-all how-to-do, or teach the solutions to his own personal problems in the first place (very common). This is the fate of YouTube teachers: They are unable to respond to the individual needs of a student, and in many instances they are probably not even qualified. I don't have any hope that all of the requirements of an artist may be covered in a YouTube video, and that is just O.K.. These can be very practical, like playing accurately in time, producing a fine tone, gaining rhythmic and metrical authority, being able to play in more than 3 different tempos, knowing how to fit in a rhythm- or percussion section, or any band of any size, style or genre. But the requirements may also refer to musical taste, or playing with confidence and sensitivity at the same time, developing style, or whatever a teacher detects as relevant for the student.
What would be your recommendations for beginning people who right now may not have any other option than studying YouTube videos online to learn/study bongos ?

Try to overcome all of these disadvantages just by yourself.

I hope this helps at least a bit.

Greetings, Thomas
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Re: What is the importance of Clave rhythm in bongos playing

Postby Beatnik07 » Mon Dec 30, 2019 1:10 pm

Thomas Altmann wrote:Dear Beatnik,

I do/did not really have a massive amount of bongo students to report about; most people come to me for congas and batá, and they are inreasingly from an advanced segment. Anyway:

The sound seems to be hard to pick up from the clips. Especially the dynamics tend to be leveled down to a linear volume. Also, the physicality, like lifting and striking motions, posture or breathing, are to be carefully observed by student and teacher in a lesson dialogue. Playing hand drums with bad technique can become dangerous, because you can hurt your hands, wrists or fingers, or contract a tendonitis. There are numerous things that can go wrong without this person-to-person communication, too numerous in fact to list up, or even think about.
Hand drum technique requires precise articulation of sound diversity. The thumb stroke has its own sound quality for instance, as has any other stroke on each of the drums. It also has the double function of muting the macho head, or rather shortening the resonating surface in order to achieve what I call the "click sound" on the bongo. Hand positioning and drum head zones are important. How long do the fingers rest on the drum? How do I time my motions, and how and when do I travel from the macho to the hembra and vice versa? If you have no idea how the bongo has to sound live, the danger is that you play one inarticulate sequence of strokes at an undistinguishable sound range in uniform dynamics.

See above and below. However, I do not have hundreds of students to supply representative statistics.

Look, music is an art. It is almost like a secret science. The nature of this art is a subject of constant searching, for me as for anyone else. Chances are that people with more experience are ahead of beginners, so they can give them the right advice at the right moment, or even pose the right questions to guide the student on his way. A good teacher should realize the specific talents as well as the shortcomings of each individual student and respond to them accordingly, as opposed to deliver a one-for-all how-to-do, or teach the solutions to his own personal problems in the first place (very common). This is the fate of YouTube teachers: They are unable to respond to the individual needs of a student, and in many instances they are probably not even qualified. I don't have any hope that all of the requirements of an artist may be covered in a YouTube video, and that is just O.K.. These can be very practical, like playing accurately in time, producing a fine tone, gaining rhythmic and metrical authority, being able to play in more than 3 different tempos, knowing how to fit in a rhythm- or percussion section, or any band of any size, style or genre. But the requirements may also refer to musical taste, or playing with confidence and sensitivity at the same time, developing style, or whatever a teacher detects as relevant for the student.


Thanks for your reply !

I understand that the physicality of the playing process isn't/cannot be addressed in videos, and that there isn't a teacher to monitor the student technique, posture, etc. Unfortunately videos can't remedy this issue.

On the second point, I realized pretty early that each parameter (striking position on the head, part of the hand doing the striking, etc.) has an influence on the sound. Actually Dance Papi in his video about martillo (at 12:50):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCY3q2mE-kY emphasizes the dynamics of the strokes and in order to preserve the grain/articulation of the pattern and to avoid denaturing uniformity.

On the meaning of what's important in music, I agree with most of your answer. Of course a good and dedicated teacher is ideal. However, I believe that even in the absence of such teacher, a committed and persevering student will develop sooner or latter his/her musical personality even with a cookie cutter type of teaching such as these videos, and hopefully realize and manage his/her shortcomings and most important learn to dialogue with his/her bongos, get to know the instrument, explore the sonic possibilities. While the technical side is capital, we are considering an art like you said, and within limits there is no right or wrong.
As Duke Ellington said: "If it sounds good, it is good".

Incidentally, the online videos have their own advantages: the possibility to repeat ad infinitum a detail of the playing (way beyond the patience of any real teacher), the opportunity to study at home, when one wants, the possibility to slow down the video to really examine a hand or finger motion, stop an image at a crucial moment, etc.

Having said this, just like with any form of endeavor, a real, experienced and dedicated teacher is better than a book, a video, or a recording. However there might unfortunately be tons of reasons why a bongos teacher might not be available to a student.

And so I find the statement : "One day, when you finally consult an experienced player for classes, you might find yourself in the need to start all over again from zero." needlessly severe, and a bit counterproductive. What I learnt from patiently studying videos, patiently practicing it, patiently memorizing it, may not be much, may not be right, may not be what teachers or seasoned bongoceros would approve of. But while I don't exactly know yet what it is, in my opinion it is not zero.
:)
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Re: What is the importance of Clave rhythm in bongos playing

Postby Thomas Altmann » Mon Dec 30, 2019 7:29 pm

Dear Beatnik,

I'm sorry if you felt discouraged by my remark of "starting from zero". This is just what I saw happening to my students, and consciously I used the word "might".
On the other hand, when I started playing congas, bongos, timbales etc. in Hamburg in the late 1970s, there was neither YouTube, nor any videos, nor any teacher; so I started playing in a complete vacuum. All I had was records, and that was good, because there you can hear best what it shoud sound like.

I still play bongos a bit different (trying to avoid the word "wrong"), but in the end it sounds good, and in a teaching situation I inform my student about this peculiarity. The difference is that in the martillo, I do not move my fingertips towards the center of the head on counts 1+ and 2 and 3+ (edited), but keep them in one position. I have to control my right hand on 2, so it does not become too loud in the balance. The reason is that when I started to play, there was no way to see how it is actually done. On the other hand, I don't like to move too much across the drum head, anyway.

On congas, I had to re-condition myself several times to adapt my technique. This is always possible. To me, it didn't even feel like a waste of time, because in this way I got to know my instrument better. For the same reason, I oftentimes suggest that a beginner should spend some time (a year or so) alone with his/her instrument before consulting a teacher, so he/she can develop a personal relationship with his/her instrument and become familiar with its nature. Usually, that's when the first questions arise, and when a teacher can become helpful.

Also, there are some bongo students who either think it is the easiest instrument to pick up, because it is small and inexpensive. Others just want to have fun fooling around with them, like we were banging away on them in the 70s, stoned in a park. Then others don't want to bother with technique, or the Cuban tradition, because they need the bongos only as one tool in a bigger setup for pop, rock or funk settings. None of these does need a lot of lessons (though they wouldn't hurt, either).

But in Latin music, it's a different story. Here, the bongos are in a way the most difficult percussion instrument, because they have the most space to colour and improvise, and therefore the bongocero has to know the music thoroughly to play the right accents at the right time, depending on the rhythm and the style of the tune: You play different in Son than in a Bolero. You have to know when to pick up the bell or come back to the drums. Then there are different bell patterns; in the Guajira you often turn around the order of beel and bongo; for Guaguancó you replace the quinto, for Bomba you should be able to play a tumbadora part, and for charanga-related styles you often play the güíro, and either the güíra or the tambora for Merengue. Plus, in a conjunto (edited), you may cue the band ... and so on. In other words, you have to know the music you are playing; I forgot to mention that in my previous post. It is absolutely possible to work it all out on your own. I did that, for one instance. But it took me more than 20 years, and I'm not even a top player, internationally. I had a great time learning by doing, and though I had some embarrassing moments, I finally got where I wanted to be.

Sometimes, however, I envy the young musicians today. All the knowledge is there for them, ready to take away. Plus, there are videos and YouTube. They can easily make it in 5 years, and some of them do.

All the best,
Thomas

P.S.: I just watched Edgardo Cambón's video. He plays the martillo almost the way I do. I move the left hand even less, and I suppress the open tone on beat 2 more, because when I play with a conguero, I want to hear his slap clearly, and even more so at faster tempos. I think most people play beat 2 like 1+ and 3+ rather in the center of the drum head, but they have to move more. He even teaches the pattern like I do.
I am not afraid of the ring on the hembra anymore, because that's what gives some colour and enriches the sound in the context of the ensemble.
Unfortunately Edgardo starts his repique with the rim shot on 4+ on the 3-side of the clave (introducing the 2-side), which is rather uncommon in today's practice. He turns everything around towards the end. There is some freedom in playing the bongo, but for an instructional video, this isn't ideal, and it makes me wonder whether he really has a concept of playing bongo in clave. It is a pity, because his introduction was great, and his martillo sounds beautiful. And the man has a name - internationally!
Last edited by Thomas Altmann on Wed Jan 01, 2020 12:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What is the importance of Clave rhythm in bongos playing

Postby Beatnik07 » Tue Dec 31, 2019 7:25 pm

Still trying to correlate (sync) the Clave pattern with the Martillo pattern:

So let's consider for example the #5 diagram of Son Clave, When would the Martillo start, ie at what step of this Clave pattern (using #5 illustration) would the Martillo 1st beat start (assuming the Martillo pattern is one bar) ?

Thanks, and Happy New Year to all !!!! :)
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Re: What is the importance of Clave rhythm in bongos playing

Postby Beatnik07 » Tue Dec 31, 2019 7:30 pm

Thomas Altmann wrote:I'm sorry if you felt discouraged by my remark of "starting from zero". This is just what I saw happening to my students, and consciously I used the word "might".

No worry I didn't feel "discouraged" at all.
I can tell you are trying to be helpful. Thanks for your reply ! :)
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Re: What is the importance of Clave rhythm in bongos playing

Postby Chtimulato » Wed Jan 01, 2020 11:42 am

Hello and happy new year to everyone.

Using the #5 pattern, martillo should begin on the first "box" (if you're playing the 3/2 clave) and the 9th (if you're playing 2/3).
You'll notice (if you haven't done yet) that you play the same martillo pattern in the 2 parts.
Once you can play it, it will be interesting and important to learn some variations.

If you can't find a teacher, either in real life or online, could you at least film yourself while playing and post the video here ?
So we can tell you what we think of your playing.

Have fun.
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Re: What is the importance of Clave rhythm in bongos playing

Postby Beatnik07 » Wed Jan 01, 2020 2:05 pm

Chtimulato wrote:Hello and happy new year to everyone.

Using the #5 pattern, martillo should begin on the first "box" (if you're playing the 3/2 clave) and the 9th (if you're playing 2/3).
You'll notice (if you haven't done yet) that you play the same martillo pattern in the 2 parts.
Once you can play it, it will be interesting and important to learn some variations.

If you can't find a teacher, either in real life or online, could you at least film yourself while playing and post the video here ?
So we can tell you what we think of your playing.

Have fun.


Thanks for your reply, and Happy New Year to you too !

I realize more and more that depending on the teacher there are quite different styles/views of doing things.

For example in the David Parada video below, the second martillo beat is subdued and consists in the RH index striking the macho while the LF fingers rest in the center of the macho.
In Dance Papi martillo video, the second beat is simply a RH open strike on the macho (see Dance Papi video at 9:00)

Also David Parada syncs the martillo and the 3-2 Son Clave by first starting the martillo on its 4th beat (hembra), and syncs this 4th martillo beat with the 5th strike of the Clave (see the Peralda video at 6:50).

https://youtu.be/QCY3q2mE-kY (Dance Papi)
https://youtu.be/8zZ__iOYwEw (David Parada)

This is not frustrating it shows the richness of practices, and demonstrates that in afro-cuban/latin music things are not quite rigidly fixed or codified in marble. :)
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Re: What is the importance of Clave rhythm in bongos playing

Postby Chtimulato » Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:08 pm

David Parada syncs the martillo and the 3-2 Son Clave by first starting the martillo on its 4th beat (hembra)

Yes, some people happen to begin like that. On congas too. And other instruments. I do it sometimes too, depending on what I'm playing, and not only latin music. It's allright, as long as you know where you are.
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