LP Drums--ACTUAL Measurement vs Stated Size
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by Bongo Boy » Fri Apr 05, 2002 5:18 am
I'm having some trouble here. I ordered a conga, and when I measured it, it looks like a quinto. Could be just a clerical error in the order...but, I go into the local Guitar Center and they have an LP Galaxy, labeled with a UPC label that indicates it's 12.5", and elsewhere labeled "tumba".
Okay, so I take a sheet of standard typing paper (11" long) and lay it on the head..sure enough, the FLAT portion of the head is about 11.5" across, NOT 12.5".
Likewise, my drum measures very close to 10 3/4" across, nearly 11", measuring the diameter of the FLAT portion of the head (up to the point where it begins to curve down over the lip of the drum shell).
So, if the drum in the store is a no-kidding tumba, then my drum is indeed a no-kidding conga, I guess.
Can those of you who have any LP or Matador set of congas do this same measurement--I say LPs or Matadors because they are all 11", 11 3/4" and 12 1/2" drums. I sure would like to know what measurements you get when you measure the diameter of the FLAT portion of the head. In other words, only that portion of the skin that actually touches your ruler when you place it on the head. Get it?
I'm trying to avoid ordering another conga, thinking I have a quinto when I may not!! Thanks kids!
Okay, so I take a sheet of standard typing paper (11" long) and lay it on the head..sure enough, the FLAT portion of the head is about 11.5" across, NOT 12.5".
Likewise, my drum measures very close to 10 3/4" across, nearly 11", measuring the diameter of the FLAT portion of the head (up to the point where it begins to curve down over the lip of the drum shell).
So, if the drum in the store is a no-kidding tumba, then my drum is indeed a no-kidding conga, I guess.
Can those of you who have any LP or Matador set of congas do this same measurement--I say LPs or Matadors because they are all 11", 11 3/4" and 12 1/2" drums. I sure would like to know what measurements you get when you measure the diameter of the FLAT portion of the head. In other words, only that portion of the skin that actually touches your ruler when you place it on the head. Get it?
I'm trying to avoid ordering another conga, thinking I have a quinto when I may not!! Thanks kids!
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Bongo Boy - Posts: 146
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by Mike » Fri Apr 05, 2002 6:45 pm
Yeah, I suppose the companies might take the shell size / diameter for measruring, I don´t know. It seems to vary considerably. Either each drum is unique, or, more probable, the companies want to sell only their own heads amd rims...
But on second thoughts: Is that really a problem if a conga or whatever hasn´t got the EXACT size?! I mean you can change a lot by tuning, and the shell contur is at least vital for the sound of a drum (compare djembe and conga, e.g.)
But on second thoughts: Is that really a problem if a conga or whatever hasn´t got the EXACT size?! I mean you can change a lot by tuning, and the shell contur is at least vital for the sound of a drum (compare djembe and conga, e.g.)
Peace & drum
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Mike - Posts: 2193
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by limberic » Sat Apr 06, 2002 12:06 am
Bongo Boy - I don't think you have a quinto.
My LP Matador Conga measures essentially 11 3/4 inches if you project vertically downward and measure the diameter of the OUTSIDE of the shell's top, projecting downward and using the low edge of the rim's unfinished beveled wood edges on either side (you follow?). If I measure across the top of the shell, mid-point of one rim's thickness to mid-point of other rim's thickness, its about 11 1/4 inches. If I measure the inside diameter of the shell (the hole) it's essentially 10 3/4 inches. Don't know how these dimensions compare to Toca, Pearl, Moperc, Meinl, etc.
Having said all that - I really love my Matador: beautiful drum, beautiful voice.
By the way, my buddy has a set of three LP Classic's (q, c & t). If the Matador and Classic congas are tuned together, I defy you to tell which one is which in a blind-fold test - even though the head materials appear different (the Matador has a translucent, almost clear appearance with tiny, smooth bumps - and even some black hair stubble - and the Matador logo on it. The Classic has a translucent, cloudy appearance and "LP Hand Picked" on it). Looking from an angle, with the sun reflecting on them, the Matador appears smooth but textured like an orange peel. The Classic has a bit of that texture but with major but tiny creases in it like tributaries, rivulets seen from the air - you don't see any of those meandering shallow creases in the Matador's head - just smooth orange peel.
The Siam oak shells seem to have been made the same way, with the same materials, the same day in the same shop, like once the shells are made, the shop manager says, "take that bunch over there and make 'em into Classics, these here we'll build as Matadors."
The only real differences are in the lug plates and head rims. I like the bull's head horns of the Matadors over the LP 'Heart' plates. The head rims are the only substantial differences: Classics definitely have the nicer 'Comfort Curve' rims, but heck, the Matador rims ain't bad and its not like they cripple you or whatever - though they are a bit less forgiving on the heel of my hands, sometimes. But it ain't no biggie.
BB - I know how a guy can fret over these little things when you've saved up your hard earned money to spring for a fairly expensive item and you want everything PERFECT! - but I think that over time, you'll learn your conga's quirks and you'll end up real good friends.
Best Regards,
Eric
Edited By limberic on April 04 2002 at 20:05
My LP Matador Conga measures essentially 11 3/4 inches if you project vertically downward and measure the diameter of the OUTSIDE of the shell's top, projecting downward and using the low edge of the rim's unfinished beveled wood edges on either side (you follow?). If I measure across the top of the shell, mid-point of one rim's thickness to mid-point of other rim's thickness, its about 11 1/4 inches. If I measure the inside diameter of the shell (the hole) it's essentially 10 3/4 inches. Don't know how these dimensions compare to Toca, Pearl, Moperc, Meinl, etc.
Having said all that - I really love my Matador: beautiful drum, beautiful voice.
By the way, my buddy has a set of three LP Classic's (q, c & t). If the Matador and Classic congas are tuned together, I defy you to tell which one is which in a blind-fold test - even though the head materials appear different (the Matador has a translucent, almost clear appearance with tiny, smooth bumps - and even some black hair stubble - and the Matador logo on it. The Classic has a translucent, cloudy appearance and "LP Hand Picked" on it). Looking from an angle, with the sun reflecting on them, the Matador appears smooth but textured like an orange peel. The Classic has a bit of that texture but with major but tiny creases in it like tributaries, rivulets seen from the air - you don't see any of those meandering shallow creases in the Matador's head - just smooth orange peel.
The Siam oak shells seem to have been made the same way, with the same materials, the same day in the same shop, like once the shells are made, the shop manager says, "take that bunch over there and make 'em into Classics, these here we'll build as Matadors."
The only real differences are in the lug plates and head rims. I like the bull's head horns of the Matadors over the LP 'Heart' plates. The head rims are the only substantial differences: Classics definitely have the nicer 'Comfort Curve' rims, but heck, the Matador rims ain't bad and its not like they cripple you or whatever - though they are a bit less forgiving on the heel of my hands, sometimes. But it ain't no biggie.
BB - I know how a guy can fret over these little things when you've saved up your hard earned money to spring for a fairly expensive item and you want everything PERFECT! - but I think that over time, you'll learn your conga's quirks and you'll end up real good friends.
Best Regards,
Eric
Edited By limberic on April 04 2002 at 20:05
Eric
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limberic - Posts: 27
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by Bongo Boy » Sat Apr 06, 2002 2:40 am
I have to think you're probably right, or very close, on the "take that bunch over there and label 'em Matadors". It's mostly marketing, if not ALL marketing.
I've looked at the LP Classics up close and personal, and I have the Giovanni Galaxy. I also have an engineering background and a manufacturing background. For the past 4 years I've developed a Sales & Marketing background. What you charge for something has very little to do with what it costs you to make it. One BIG objective of the "value sale" is to convince the customer that your product is worth paying a lot more for--and there are perfectly legit ways to do this.
An LP conga made with "genuine" American ash vs Siam oak probably costs a little more to make--you have to ship the American ash to Thailand so the guys in the Thai factory can send the wood through the planers, etc. You also have to buy 3/8" bolts instead of the 5/16" bolts--gee, I bet THAT costs a lot more
.
So yes, you're right based on my own experience. You biggest and most important point, tho, has to do with the sound. How cool it would be if we could take $150 drums and $450 drums and actually do a blind sound test and see if there are significant preference correlations between the two.
Heh, personally, I seriously doubt I could hear the difference between fiberglass, Siam oak, cherry or American ash. Okay, And let's assume I could hear a difference--would I have a PREFERENCE? I'm very sure I would not.
Now let's rant about who's PLAYING that darn thing!!! Put a guy with 2-3 decades of experience on a coffee can and I'll bet it sounds better than my $500 drum.
My high school music teacher once grabbed my POS trumpet and played a few bars on it--it sounded just as magnificent as when he played one of my classmate's horns that cost about 5 times as much. So there you are.
I've looked at the LP Classics up close and personal, and I have the Giovanni Galaxy. I also have an engineering background and a manufacturing background. For the past 4 years I've developed a Sales & Marketing background. What you charge for something has very little to do with what it costs you to make it. One BIG objective of the "value sale" is to convince the customer that your product is worth paying a lot more for--and there are perfectly legit ways to do this.
An LP conga made with "genuine" American ash vs Siam oak probably costs a little more to make--you have to ship the American ash to Thailand so the guys in the Thai factory can send the wood through the planers, etc. You also have to buy 3/8" bolts instead of the 5/16" bolts--gee, I bet THAT costs a lot more
.
So yes, you're right based on my own experience. You biggest and most important point, tho, has to do with the sound. How cool it would be if we could take $150 drums and $450 drums and actually do a blind sound test and see if there are significant preference correlations between the two.
Heh, personally, I seriously doubt I could hear the difference between fiberglass, Siam oak, cherry or American ash. Okay, And let's assume I could hear a difference--would I have a PREFERENCE? I'm very sure I would not.
Now let's rant about who's PLAYING that darn thing!!! Put a guy with 2-3 decades of experience on a coffee can and I'll bet it sounds better than my $500 drum.
My high school music teacher once grabbed my POS trumpet and played a few bars on it--it sounded just as magnificent as when he played one of my classmate's horns that cost about 5 times as much. So there you are.
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Bongo Boy - Posts: 146
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by timo » Sat Apr 06, 2002 10:03 am
Your very positive about your playing abilities Bongo Boy 
Anyway, as Eric said i think that companys use the crude shape to measure the head size, its almoust impossible to do it otherwise,(at least it would take more work),since you would have to take into considoration the shaping of the edge, and therefore you need more wood to make the drum slightly larger... and so on, it would just be a pain, i personally measure the crude shape,(outer edges), because its much easier,(and takes less effort to calculate wood width), and i make congas by hand it would be really annoying to start shaping the edge exactly to calculations.
Anyway, as Eric said i think that companys use the crude shape to measure the head size, its almoust impossible to do it otherwise,(at least it would take more work),since you would have to take into considoration the shaping of the edge, and therefore you need more wood to make the drum slightly larger... and so on, it would just be a pain, i personally measure the crude shape,(outer edges), because its much easier,(and takes less effort to calculate wood width), and i make congas by hand it would be really annoying to start shaping the edge exactly to calculations.
AXÉ
timo
timo
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timo - Posts: 162
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by Bongo Boy » Thu Apr 18, 2002 4:58 am
Yes, they call me Mr Confidence 
But c'mon, what could possibly be an easier measurement than "the diameter of the uppermost end of the drum". I mean, it's absolutely unequivocal, and it's the ONLY place on the drum where a scale (ruler) will touch the drum in exactly two places when laid across the diameter of the rim opening. Everything else is an estimate--a guess.
You would size your staves to obtain this measurement no differently than you would to get any other measurement--the only difference is, you'd actually KNOW when you got it 'right'.
The other advantage is, this measurement is totally independent of how thick the shell of the drum is, how the top end of the drum is contoured, etc.
It's also not a big problem, to me, if the actual size ends up being in a small range, say from 11.6" to 11.8", and you call the drum an "11 3/4" drum. No problemo. I don't think anyone really cares what the actual dimensions are. See what I'm sayin'?
But c'mon, what could possibly be an easier measurement than "the diameter of the uppermost end of the drum". I mean, it's absolutely unequivocal, and it's the ONLY place on the drum where a scale (ruler) will touch the drum in exactly two places when laid across the diameter of the rim opening. Everything else is an estimate--a guess.
You would size your staves to obtain this measurement no differently than you would to get any other measurement--the only difference is, you'd actually KNOW when you got it 'right'.
The other advantage is, this measurement is totally independent of how thick the shell of the drum is, how the top end of the drum is contoured, etc.
It's also not a big problem, to me, if the actual size ends up being in a small range, say from 11.6" to 11.8", and you call the drum an "11 3/4" drum. No problemo. I don't think anyone really cares what the actual dimensions are. See what I'm sayin'?
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Bongo Boy - Posts: 146
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by Bongo Boy » Sat Apr 20, 2002 4:59 pm
Yes that's very helpful. I'm going to pick up my second drum today, and that info will come in mighty handy to make sure I get the correct one. Sure wish I hadn't nearly broken my middle finger last weekend tho--a little power tool mishap, you know.
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Bongo Boy - Posts: 146
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by Bongo Boy » Fri Apr 26, 2002 8:52 pm
My tumba arrived a few days ago and even sitting side by side I couldn't tell them apart--they look identical. Conga: 11", tumba: 11.5". Drum came in an unopened LP shipping box labeled "TUMBADORA".
The innermost diameters of the steel rims are the only things on the drums with a 3/4" difference--honestly don't know why they don't use the same rim. The head diameter is less than a 1/2" different, and the diameter of the rings at the base of the drums are 1/4" different.
These two drum (conga & tumba) could be exactly the same size and work just as well. I doubt very much if the same, identical heads aren't used on both.
Edited By Bongo Boy on April 27 2002 at 07:57
The innermost diameters of the steel rims are the only things on the drums with a 3/4" difference--honestly don't know why they don't use the same rim. The head diameter is less than a 1/2" different, and the diameter of the rings at the base of the drums are 1/4" different.
These two drum (conga & tumba) could be exactly the same size and work just as well. I doubt very much if the same, identical heads aren't used on both.
Edited By Bongo Boy on April 27 2002 at 07:57
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Bongo Boy - Posts: 146
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by congabebe » Wed May 22, 2002 2:25 am
I have got Tumba fever. I want to have that 3rd drum. Doesn't make any since. The band I play in, we have to cramp into such small stages I won't have room for the 3rd drum even if I could sweeze it in somewhere. So, now the store I was counting on getting it at has stopped selling them and they are discounting the smaller size drums. Would it be crazy to buy a drum that is the same as the two I have and just tune it different? Or is it better to pay a higher price at a different store and get the tumba size? Any ideas on tuning them? I can see an advantage to having 2 congas and the segundo. The smaller drums are lighter! But to risk the sound. I love that 3rd drum sound. Any advise?
Thanks,
congabebe
Thanks,
congabebe
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congabebe - Posts: 114
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by benbaboon » Wed May 22, 2002 6:30 am
hello bebe, If you have a conga and a quinto... which is what it sounds like.... I would definitely pay a little extra to get a tumba. when I can play only two drums, It's always conga and a tumba, and it's the pair you'd go with by cuban common wisdom.
Above and beyond that there is the issue of tunning two drums of same size to different pitches... the range it offers is very limited. To tune a conga to the pitch of a tumba you most likely will have to loosen the skin to the point where the skin loses too much of its "springiness" and starts sounding flat.
hope I didn't totally confuse you
-bb
Above and beyond that there is the issue of tunning two drums of same size to different pitches... the range it offers is very limited. To tune a conga to the pitch of a tumba you most likely will have to loosen the skin to the point where the skin loses too much of its "springiness" and starts sounding flat.
hope I didn't totally confuse you
-bb-
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